Edward D. McKim Oral History Interview, February 17, 1964

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened December, 1964
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[1]

FUCHS: Mr. McKim, we might start by your giving me a brief autobiographical sketch of yourself, when you were born and where and how you happened to come to your present situation, to your retirement in Arizona?

MCKIM: You want me to go through sixty-eight years for you right quick?

FUCHS: Just briefly, mainly your education and your moves.

MCKIM: I was born in Evansville, Indiana, on the 20th of October, 1895. At a very early age, probably six months, I was taken by my mother to my grandmother's farm out near Frankfort, Kansas. The doctors had given up on me, had said that I couldn't live. My grandmother prescribed the old-time remedies and brought me through. We later moved to Kansas City, Missouri and I went to school there at old St. Patrick's School at 8th and

[2]

Cherry Streets. Later I spent four years at De LaSalle Academy at 16th and Paseo, graduating from De LaSalle in June 1915. In 1916, I spent eight weeks at Rockhurst College as a special student. I think the specialty was football. I spent one football season at Rockhurst. There are people who say I got kicked out of school but that isn't the truth; I got kicked out of the clubhouse! After that, in 1917, I joined the 2nd Missouri Field Artillery of the Missouri National Guard, which was being organized. At that time, the Artillery National Guard consisted of A Battery in St. Louis, Missouri; B Battery in Kansas City, Missouri; and C Battery in Independence, Missouri. These three batteries were to be enlarged into a regiment. The regiment was formed and was inducted in the Federal Service on the 5th o f August, 1917. Upon induction in September, the regiment became the 129th Field Artillery of the 35th Division. In September, we were sent to Camp Doniphan at Lawton, Oklahoma for training. At that time Charles B. Allen was captain of Battery D, the battery to which I belonged, and Harry Truman was then a first lieutenant in F Battery, commanded by Captain Pete Allen. We did all of our training there and we did a lot of firing for the School of Fire, which

[3]

was located over at Fort Sill across the "Horseshoe."

There was an advance detail sent to France early in 1918 and Lieutenant Truman was in this advance detail, known as "The Overseas Detail." The rest of the regiment followed in May. Shortly after arrival in France, I was sent out on a horse detail, gathering up horses for the American Army. We had been forced to leave our own horses at Fort Sill due to the lack of shipping. We had to use the culls of four years of warfare in Europe for our stock. The French would hold a requisition in a town and all of the farmers in that area had to bring in all of their horses. We would take what we wanted, and give them a requisition for it. We would then ride the horses back. The schedule seemed to be a day's ride out from our base at Le Mans on the train, to the town of the requisition, and then we'd spend close to a week riding them back. It had to be all bareback.

FUCHS: What section of France were you in?

MCKIM: We were up around in Brittany and Normandy at that time.

While I was out on that detail, we got word from

[4]

the battery that our captain, John H. Thacher, had been promoted to major and made adjutant of one of the battalions, and that we were to have a new captain, Captain Harry S. Truman. I had met Truman in the early days when we were organizing the battery and I didn't care much for him. I didn't care much for the idea of going through a war with a man I considered a "sissy," and I began to think of ways and means of transferring out of the outfit, but then I thought all my friends were there and I had better stay with them.

FUCHS: Why did you consider him a sissy at that time?

MCKIM: Just my impression of him at that time. But he certainly, after he became captain, got us out of that idea right quick.

FUCHS: What was your first actual meeting with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: Well, the first time I saw him in France was the morning he took command of the battery.

FUCHS: I'm thinking of in the United States when you were organizing in Kansas City?

[5]

MCKIM: Well, at the time it was being organized, we had a bunch of fellows who would go down to the Board of Election Commissioners and go through the records there to see fellows who were within the draft age. We had six batteries to form and we'd take the names out of the election records and then the Flying Squadron would go out and try to talk the men into enlisting rather than waiting for the draft. We were both doing some of that work and that's where I first met him. I had no close association with him at that time.

FUCHS: Is it your recollection that he was actually more active in organizing the battery and building up the regiment than most of the other people?

MCKIM: I wouldn't say more so. I know he was interested in it, as were we all, but as to whether he was more or less, I didn't have much contact with him at that time and I couldn't tell you for sure. I know that he'd been in Battery "B" for a great many years. I think he'd been in since 1905.

FUCHS: Well, actually, he was in two hitches, from '05 to '11, and then he dropped out, and the story is that

[6]

when he came back he was very active with Major Miles in building the regiment up.

MCKIM: That's right. In fact, there were quite a number of people that were interested in it at that time. I wasn't up in the top brass. I couldn't tell you just what all was going on then. I was lending my volunteer efforts to help with the battery.

FUCHS: He was not an officer when you first met him?

MCKIM: No, in those days the National Guard elected their officers. Everybody knew who the officers of the Regiments were going to be, and they were elected in the National Guard and when they were inducted in the Federal Service they held that rank to which they had been elected by the men.

FUCHS: Well, did you feel when you met him, even though you thought he was a sissy, that he was going to be an officer?

MCKIM: I knew he was going to be. Sure, that was in the slate. But after we were in France, Truman was -- well, he was the boss of the outfit. He not only commanded

[7]

the outfit, he owned it. He was the first captain we had that we felt knew what he was doing. No, that first is not correct because Captain John Thacher knew what he was doing; I couldn't say as much about the other two.

FUCHS: Who were they?

MCKIM: Captain Charlie Allen and Captain Rollin Ritter, who had been an engineer officer.

FUCHS: Why didn't you think much of them?

MCKIM: Well, I thought a lot of Charlie Allen, but Charlie got himself involved with a red-headed woman and our mess fund seemed to disappear. Charlie was cashier of the fund. He went up before what they called the "Benzine board" and Charlie was washed out of the army. Afterwards, he went back to Kansas City and I think entered the SATC (Students Army Training Corps) stationed at St. Mary's, Kansas. He was the first football coach at Rockhurst College. I played under him there. In fact, I was supposed to get twelve dollars a week for going to school, playing center, and coaching the

[8]

line, but I never got the twelve dollars a week.

FUCHS: This would have been what year?

MCKIM: That would have been 1916. No, I've got to go back. This was before. Charlie was the first coach in 1916 and it was after the battery was formed and after he was cashiered at Fort Sill that he went back to St. Mary's. I think he was a reporter or did some reportorial work for the old Kansas City Post. I lost all track of him after we came back from service. I understood that he was in some veterans hospital and died in a veterans hospital, but I played football with Charlie Allen, sort of semi-pro football, for years before.

FUCHS: Well then, if I understand it correctly, you would say that he was not relieved there because of an inability to handle the men in the battery?

MCKIM: Well, first of all, I thought that he took on too big a job in being captain of a battery. Charlie Allen had been a corporal in Battery B in the Mexican border affair in 1915 , and I thought he bit off quite a chunk to go from a corporal to a captain. However,

[9]

his main trouble was a red-headed woman and the absence of our battery mess fund which we had built up.

FUCHS: What about Captain Rollin Ritter?

MCKIM: Well, I don't know much about him except that we just didn't get along very well.

FUCHS: You mean, you, personally?

MCKIM: Personally. Do you want me to tell the story about it?

FUCHS: Anything you know about him.

MCKIM: The only thing I know about him was that he was supposed to be an engineer officer who had been transferred to field artillery. He knew nothing at all about mounted drill, and on one occasion on a cold, frosty morning when the horses were a bit frisky, I was acting first sergeant and he gave a kind of weird command (the commands were all given by arm signals) and the men didn't understand it and I didn't understand it. I blew the whistle and stopped the battery, which the captain didn't like one little bit. I rode up and he said, "What's the matter, sergeant?"

[10]

"Well, sir, I didn't understand your command and I don't think the men did and I blew the whistle."

He said, "I gave the command for so-and-so."

I said, "Well, begging the Captain's pardon, the command for that is..." and I gave it to him.

He went on again and gave another weird arm signal and about that time it threw the whole battery into confusion and one of the men in my section, the 2nd section, a fellow named Blankenship, was thrown from his horse; he was driving a wheel pair, and the carriage ran over him. I thought he was killed. We stopped the maneuvers right then and called the ambulance and took him to the hospital. We all thought he was dead; and I thought it was the fault of the Captain. The Captain and I had a few choice words out there on that bald hill and he ordered me to report to his tent after it was over; I reported. He said, "Sergeant, I have a good notion to bust you."

And I had already started my stripes that were sewed onto my shirt, and I reached up with both hands and tore them off and laid them on his table.

He said, "You'll keep them on until I tell you to take them off."

[11]

So I picked them up again and slapped them back on.

He said, "I've got a good notion, Sergeant, to treat you as man to man."

"Well," I said, "if the Captain dares."

I think he would have pulverized me because he must have weighed a good two hundred and twenty pounds and I weighed about a hundred and seventy-five.

So, I guess it was within two or three days that the order was posted that I was reduced to the rank of private. From then on I remained a private. In those days a private got thirty dollars a month, a first-class private got thirty-three, a corporal got thirty-six, a sergeant got thirty-eight, and a first sergeant got forty-four, and I couldn't figure that it was worth eight dollars a month to be a sergeant. So I told them from then on they'd look for me. I always kidded Truman after the war that he owed me three dollars a month for the duration of the war because he wouldn't make me a first class private. He probably felt I didn't deserve to be.

FUCHS: What happened to Captain Ritter?

[12]

MCKIM: I don't know. He faded out of the picture. Captain John Thacher replaced him as battery commander and I don't know what happened to Ritter. He left the regiment.

FUCHS: Why was he replaced?

MCKIM: I don't know. I wasn't in the confidence of the colonel of the regiment.

FUCHS: Did you think it was partly because the men in the battery gave me a lot of trouble?

MCKIM: No, I just think that they found out that he was just no damned good.

FUCHS: Captain Thacher then took over

MCKIM: Very, very fine man, Captain John Thacher. We boys used to call him "Cryin' John," but he was a very, very fine gentleman, a fine officer and we thought a lot of him, just an awful lot. He was moved up to be battalion adjutant and Truman was promoted to captain and given command of D Battery. At that time, Truman felt that he was promoted and given charge of D

[13]

Battery because he felt that the colonel was trying to break him, because D Battery was kind of a hard battery to handle, a tough battery to handle.

There's a story that most of these men were graduates of De LaSalle. There were only two, however, who had ever gone to Rockhurst and that was a fellow named Fred McDonald and myself. We were the only two who had ever gone to Rockhurst out of the whole battery. There were quite a number, however, from De LaSalle.

FUCHS: Was Rockhurst a full four-year college at that time?

MCKIM: No, Rockhurst at that time was just a high school.

FUCHS: It was a four-year high school?

MCKIM: Yes, a four-year high school.

FUCHS: How did they come to call it a college in so many of these...?

MCKIM: They started off calling it a college and the buildings sat there for a number of years with just the concrete work up until they could get enough

[14]

money to complete the building.

FUCHS: Do you have any other memories of Lieutenant Truman at Camp Doniphan?

MCKIM: No, because at Camp Doniphan he was in another battery.

FUCHS: You didn't have occasion to come into contact with him?

MCKIM: I had no occasion to come in contact with him.

FUCHS: What about in the canteen, do you recall seeing him there?

MCKIM: He and Eddie Jacobson ran the canteen. I'd see more of Eddie than I would the Captain, because he had not only his battery duties to perform but he had the canteen duties. The canteen that they operated was the only successful one at Camp Doniphan, and they ran it and they ran it well.

FUCHS: Did you ever see Lieutenant Truman actually selling things in there or did you think of him just as a PX officer as we had...?

[15]

MCKIM: I think more just as PX officer. It may be that he was selling things in there. He never sold me anything so I couldn't say.

FUCHS: Would you say that there was as many as one-third of Battery D that had gone to De LaSalle Academy?

MCKIM: No, I wouldn't say that many. I would say that probably there may have been, oh, fifteen or twenty that had gone to De LaSalle; I could run down the list and pick them out, but that would be a long list to go through. [Mr. McKim later supplied the following list of Battery "D" members who attended De LaSalle: Francis A. Brannon, William H. Breen, Francis L. Conboy, Riley E. Dobel, Fred H. McDonald, Daniel L. Flaherty, John J. Higginbotham, Edward D. McKim, Albert A. Ridge, Ernest L. Schmidt, Joseph W. Sherlock, John J. Uncles.]

FUCHS: Yes. Then, when Captain Truman took over the battery, what is your recollection of his first appearance on the scene?

MCKIM: He took command of the battery on a cold, frosty morning at Camp Coetquidon, which was an artillery training center, and my recollection of him was that his knees were knocking together.

FUCHS: You could see that visibly?

MCKIM: Yes, you could see that he was scared to death.

[16]

After that he came right out of it.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything that he said?

MCKIM: No, I don't recall. It was just the usual speech of an officer taking over command of an outfit.

FUCHS: Was there any talk among these so-called tough boys in Battery D that they were going to see what his caliber was right away?

MCKIM: No, we had one fellow who had served with Truman in old Battery B, by the name of [Edward L.] Ed Sandifer. Ed Sandifer had been a sergeant when Truman was a lead driver. Sandifer was a blacksmith in our battery and he kind of gave us the tip off on the new captain. There was no trouble whatever when Truman took command.

FUCHS: In other words, he let you know that he was a pretty good man?

MCKIM: Yes, he let us know he was Boss!

FUCHS: What was the significance of the Orchard at Cheppy? You mentioned this in a letter to Mr. Truman when you were planning a trip to Europe.

[17]

MCKIM: Well, the Orchard at Cheppy was the morning of September 27 of 1918. We had been in a little thicket called Forêt de Hesse; we had been there for three or four days fixing our gun emplacements and getting ready for the big push which we knew was coming. Truman had made a little speech to us about the battle line was to extend from the English Channel to the Vosges Mountains. The barrage was to start at the channel and progress. We were to take part in it, starting at four o'clock in the morning, to roll a creeping barrage ahead of the infantry. We fired for four hours. We then hitched up and pulled out following the infantry. We had to cross the Kreimhilde Stellung Line and it was the next day, the 27th, that we pulled into the Orchard at Cheppy. We went into position there and Truman went out ahead with his telephone corporals and sat in a shell hole. He spotted two German batteries that were pulling back into position. Well, the old saying was that "A battery seen is a battery lost" and we caught them before they got into position, as Truman sent back the data. We went into action and he said, "Fire at will; fire as fast as you can," and we just poured them in there. While he was out there the

[18]

infantry retreated and left him there, but he got back all right. We knocked out those two batteries there and that stopped their counterattack.

FUCHS: Was this the instance where he was reprimanded for firing outside his sector?

MCKIM: It may have been, I don't know. Sector or no sector there were batteries moving into position and they made an awfully good target.

FUCHS: What about "Our top sergeant at The Battle of Who Ran?"

MCKIM: That was the first sergeant we had named Meigs Woolridge, and the "Battle of Who Ran" was up in the Vosges Mountains. We had moved into position on the reverse slope of a hill to fire across at the next hill and the Germans fired back. Meigs Woolridge lost his head and hollered, "Run for it men, they've got a bracket on us." And that's when the boys took him at his word. He was standing right close to the Captain and they figured it was the Captain's command. I wasn't there but this was the report that I got.

[19]

I was on the regimental switchboard down in the town of Kruth.

FUCHS So what happened?

MCKIM: That was the Battle of "Who Ran."

FUCHS: And the Captain turned them?

MCKIM: The Captain turned them and got them back, he got the gun carriages out. Our barrage was finished, you see. It was after that when they retaliated.

FUCHS: It says, "He who saved the National Army at La Beholle"?

MCKIM: That was a French reserve camp and we moved into after the Armistice, and we were there for several months. Now who saved the situation there I don't know.

FUCHS: What was the situation there? Was there any particular problem that you know about?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: "Our Colonel from assassination on the drive to

[20]

Nancy." Was there a joke about that?

MCKIM: Yes, there was a joke about that. The Colonel wore one of these yellow slickers and our chaplain, Father L. Curtis Tiernan, also had a slicker the same color. I think the Colonel might have been assassinated that night because he doubletimed us up Toul Hill from midnight until about four in the morning, I think that somebody might have shot him in the back but they were afraid to shoot because Father Tiernan had the same color slicker.

FUCHS: This was Colonel who?

MCKIM: Colonel Karl D. Klemm.

FUCHS: You say that was Toul Hill. That was a long hill?

MCKIM: It was a long hill at double time carrying a pack, and it was senseless.

FUCHS: What was your overall impression of Colonel Klemm?

MCKIM: Well, my overall impression was that he was a crazy man. Does that answer your question?

FUCHS: Did you think he was a good soldier?

[21]

MCKIM: He was a graduate of West Point and I've seen him out on the plotting board figuring out firing data with shells bursting around him and he never looked up. But I say he was a crazy man because he afterwards committed suicide in his office in the Commerce Trust Company.

FUCHS: You don't know of any particular reason that brought him to that state?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: What about "Corporal Hoffman from gas at Cheppy?"

MCKIM: Corporal [Frank G.] Hoffman was, I think, the only man in D Battery that was sent back. At Cheppy -- well it wasn't at Cheppy, but it was just off the road from Cheppy, between Cheppy and Varennes -- we were on a hill there and in battery position; Hoffman was awfully hard to find. He was usually over in some dugout. When we'd have to fire, somebody would have to go find Hoffy. Hoffman was sent back; he didn't fit into the picture at all.

FUCHS: He was relieved by Captain Truman?

[22]

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: It says here "Mechanic Wooden when peering into the wrong end of a 75mm"?

MCKIM: Well, McKinley Wooden was the battery mechanic; he was a big, tall, rangy boy, and a very, very good mechanic. We always felt that if anybody knew the secret of the French 75mm, that he did. He was very able.

FUCHS: What was "The night section at the barracks battle of Coetquidan"7

MCKIM: Well, there was one of our drafted men, a fellow who was not in the original battery, but was sent to us as a replacement, came in one night a little bit stiff. He had the bunk next to Ed Sandifer. Sandifer told him to pipe down and a little argument developed and the fellow pulled out a razor. Sandifer ran out the front door and waited. Just as this guy came out, he hit him and broke his jaw. Sandifer was just a poor man to fool with because he was a heavyweight prizefighter, and he was a horseshoer and he could hit like Joe Louis.

[23]

FUCHS: Was Mr. Truman in command of the battery at that time?

MCKIM: He was commander of the battery at that time.

FUCHS: Did he have anything to say about this, did he take any action?

MCKIM: Nobody knew who hit the guy, but I'm sure that Truman must have known that when a guy's jaw was broken with one punch, it had to be Sandifer.

FUCHS: Who was Colonel "Smack" Evans?

MCKIM: "Smack" Evans was the guidon of the battery. He is now vice-president of a bank in Louisville, Kentucky, and that colonel is from the "Kentucky colonel." In those days he was known as Milton R. Evans and his nickname was "Smack," but now he calls himself Robert Evans; but he's on the state boxing commission and vice-president of one of the banks in Louisville.

FUCHS: Do you have any other recollections of Harry Truman in combat?

MCKIM: I have a lot of recollections in combat.

[24]

FUCHS: Any incidents that historians might like to know about to help show the way he handled himself?

MCKIM: Oh, no, not particularly. I think the episode at Cheppy when he spotted those two batteries moving in was probably the most important. While he was out there, we were strafed by a couple of German planes. They came over and the German would lean out of the plane and throw these potato mashers at us -- these grenades that looked like potato mashers; had a handle on them. When Truman came back to the battery he gave orders to hitch up and pull out. We got up the road probably a hundred yards and where we had just left, boy, the shells were just raining in there. We would have been caught but we were a hundred yards away by that time -- just intuition on his part that we got out of there. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here talking to you.

FUCHS: Do you recall the Captain countermanding an order when the battery was ordered to double time on one occasion?

MCKIM: That morning we had to double time up Toul Hill,

[25]

Truman took us off the road and we laid down and slept for a while, right in the ditch at the side of the road. Then we got up and Klemm came back looking for us and he said, "Captain, where have you been?"

And Truman said, "Carrying out orders, sir."

I don't know of any countermand that he ever gave, because that wouldn't have worked, a captain countermanding the Colonel's orders.

FUCHS: Well, since they were ordered to double time but he took you off the road and let you rest...you didn't hear any repercussions from that?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: You came back on the same boat with the Captain?

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything that happened aboard ship in relation to Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: No, they took up a collection from the crap games, on board, and we wanted to get him a trophy and our idea of a trophy was a big one. We got him a great, big loving cup and the thing must have stood three or

[26]

four feet high. We had it inscribed to him. He's got that somewhere. It used to be in the old haberdashery store. It was right on exhibition in its own glass case. I don't think any other captain in the AEF got one of those.

FUCHS: Do you know who started the idea?

MCKIM: I don't know who started it.

FUCHS: What about the "Battle of Argonne and the money order"?

MCKIM: Well, a couple of hours before we were to start
the barrage in the Argonne on the morning of September 26th, the mail had been delivered. An aunt of mine had sent me a money order for ten dollars and when the Captain came along I said, "Captain, will you cash a money order?"

And he said, "Sure, if you can find a place to spend it."

Jiggs Donnelly had me endorse the money order, in case I got killed he could have it.

FUCHS: How close were you to the Captain when you returned in 1919?

[27]

MCKIM: Oh, about as close as the rest of the boys. We all used to kind of hang out around the haberdashery. "Cushionfoot" Teasley who had been a first lieutenant in the battery at Fort Sill, (he was an old regular army man and had both of his ankles or insteps broken as a sergeant in the army) and after the war was the crossing cop right at 12th and Baltimore. But we'd all drop in there some time during the day. It was the hangout.

FUCHS: Did you go to his wedding in June, 1919?

MCKIM: I wasn't there; I was in Texas at the time.

FUCHS: You took a trip to Texas...

MCKIM: I went down to the oilfields when I got out of the army. I went down to Ranger, Texas in the oilfields. I worked as a tool-dresser and as a rigbuilder and as a general flunky around an oil rig.

FUCHS: How long did you stay in Texas?

MCKIM: Oh, six or eight months, something like that.

FUCHS: Then what did you do when you came back?

[28]

MCKIM: When I came back I went to work for the Foamite Fire Foam Company traveling in parts of Missouri and Kansas, selling fire equipment for oil fires.

FUCHS: Were you in the reserve corps at this time?

MCKIM: No, I went in the reserve corps about 1922. Captain Truman suggested that I go to school one night a week up at old Central High School in an army reserve program. So I attended those classes and then took an examination and passed that; and then the fitness examination with a board of three officers. I passed that and was commissioned. That's how I got started with the reserve corps.

FUCHS: You became a second lieutenant about 1922?

MCKIM: Somewhere right around there.

FUCHS: And from that time on, did you attend summer camps?

MCKIM: Not right away, because I moved to St. Louis, and then I moved to Louisville, Kentucky. It was when I moved back to Kansas City from Louisville, Kentucky.

FUCHS: What year did you return to Kansas City?

[29]

MCKIM: I went back about 1925 to Kansas City and I was traveling then for the Insurance Field of Louisville, Kentucky; and it was about then I started going to camp at Fort Riley with the then Colonel Truman.

FUCHS: Did he make his suggestion to any number of other men in the battery, former members of the battery, that they go to school?

MCKIM: I don't recall that he did. He may have, but I think I was the only one who did.

FUCHS: Do you know what the Triangle Club was in Kansas City, that Mr. Truman was said to have been a member of?

MCKIM: I think it was one of these luncheon clubs. I didn't know it.

FUCHS: While you were in Kansas City did you get out to Independence much?

MCKIM: Once in a while.

FUCHS: Did you get around the poker club they had out there?

MCKIM: No.

[30]

FUCHS: The Harpie Club?

MCKIM: No. I think I played poker with them one night out at one of the lakes. One of the fellows had a home out there and I was there one night at a poker game.

FUCHS: It was probably Lake Lotawana.

MCKIM: Edgar Hinde, I know, was in the game.

FUCHS: What are your recollections of the haberdashery?

MCKIM: Well, it was just an economic problem. It was a good haberdashery and they sold good merchandise, but the depression of the 20's came along and caught them with high priced merchandise on hand and it wasn't worth what they paid for it. They had to take bankruptcy, which was the only thing to do. Truman paid back every cent and I think he paid back what Eddie Jacobson owed, too. In other words, the creditors all got paid and there were no debts remaining.

FUCHS: What are your recollections of Eddie Jacobson?

MCKIM: All very fine, all fine. I like Eddie very much

[31]

and admired him. He was always a happy-go-lucky individual. Eddie and a fellow named Francis Barry of "F" Battery ran a little blind pig on the front line one time. They found a case of tomatoes that somebody had snitched off of a fourgon wagon and they set up a blind pig in a dugout and traded the tomatoes to the Frenchman, who loved tomatoes, for a lot of wine and cognac. Business was so good that Eddie and Frank stopped the proceedings for a while, watered the stock and then opened up again.

FUCHS: I'm not familiar with this phrase, "a blind pig."

MCKIM: A bootleg joint. They set up a bar.

FUCHS: Do you recall Al Ridge being around the haberdashery?

MCKIM: Oh, I recall Al Ridge over many, many years. Al Ridge was a De LaSalle boy; he was in school when I was, behind me in class, however. But I knew Al very well. Al was in the battery all the way through.

FUCHS: Did you become acquainted with a man named Kelsey Cravens?

[32]

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: Did you often notice Mr. Truman reading around the haberdashery?

MCKIM: No, not around the haberdashery. He didn't have time to read around there.

FUCHS: What do you recall of any of these battery reunions that might be of interest, any particular incidents starting with about 1921 when I believe you had....

MCKIM: I was the toastmaster that year and that was the only time that Jiggs Donnelly was not the toastmaster. It was held at the Elks Club, which was then down at about 7th and Grand Avenue. Everything was going along fine until a little brawl started. Somebody asked somebody else to pass the soup and he airlined it. And then they started throwing rolls and pretty soon they were throwing dishes, and I know about that time I went under the table. They were flying my way, too. I was doing fine until somebody skipped a sugar bowl down this tile floor. I ducked that one. But it ended up in quite a brawl. Somebody sent a riot call to the police and they sent down two policemen, and one

[33]

of them happened to be George Brice who had been in the battery. They proceeded to practically undress him. Well, we finally got them calmed down and subdued. I know I had to take one guy home, Hunter Sherman, a big, long, gangling guy who lived way out in the northeast part of town. I drug him up to his front door. He was out cold and I kind of leaned him against the doorjam and he fell against the door. It opened and I rang the bell and nobody answered, so I dragged him in and laid him out on the divan, loosened his collar, and tried to make him comfortable. About that time his mother and sister came in and his mother screamed, "Oh, you got my boy drunk." Boom, she started in; I had a derby hat on and she crowned me , she put that derby hat right down around my ears. I said, "Lady, I didn't get him drunk but I brought him home." It was quite a night.

FUCHS: Do you remember Mr. Truman that evening?

MCKIM: Well, I remember Mr. Truman had to pay the bill right afterwards, not that night but the next day. I don't remember what the bill was. It ran up into important money, a couple of hundred dollars as I

[34]

recall, for the damage done.

FUCHS: Did this come out a treasury you had?

MCKIM: No, it was out of his personal pocket.

FUCHS: Did you ever take up a collection to reimburse him?

MCKIM: Not that I know of.

FUCHS: You don't know if he went under the table that night -- or was he throwing things.

MCKIM: No, he wasn't throwing, and I don't know whether or not he was under the table with me. I know that Colonel Karl D. Klemm was under there with me.

FUCHS: Any other choice reminiscences about battery antics at these reunions, particularly something that might...

MCKIM: No, they began to tone down after that as they got a little older and got a little smarter, I hope -- I trust. I'll give them credit for it anyway. But they've all been rather staid affairs since then.

FUCHS: Are you a member of the American Legion?

[35]

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Did you attend the convention they had in Kansas City in 1921?

MCKIM: Yes, I was in charge of transportation for the wounded soldiers at that convention. The battery was supposed to march but, as I discovered, about half of them decided that they were wounded soldiers and expected transportation from me. About half of them walked and the rest rode in cars.

FUCHS: Do you remember what Mr. Truman's part was at that convention?

MCKIM: No, I don't.

FUCHS: Did you go to any other national conventions with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: Yes, I went to the one down in St. Louis. When was that? I think that was in 1935. We had a suite of rooms at the Statler Hotel. I was supposed to bring Gov. Roy Cochran of Nebraska down with me in my new Chrysler car, but Roy and I had had a little squabble and I told him to get there the best way that he could.

[36]

I really didn't expect him to show up.

FUCHS: Over politics?

MCKIM: Yes. So we'd just gotten in there when Truman had to go back to Kansas City or St. Joseph. He and Fred Canfil took my car and drove back there. And while they were gone, Roy Cochran wired me he was coming in. So he moved in with his adjutant general, Major General Bert Paul, who was then also the commander of the 35th Division National Guard outfit. Truman came back, so we were all in there. We had two bedrooms and a parlor and I know that one day the Mayor of St. Louis, Barnard Dickmann, and Mayor LaGuardia of New York were up there. I arranged a deal with the Mayor to go to the ball game. The Cardinals were playing the Cubs and it was getting along late in the season, so Dickmann told me to get ahold of his secretary and get fire department cars to take the whole crowd to the ball game. Governor Clyde Herring of Iowa was in the party. We went to the ball game and Paul Dean pitched for the Cardinals and lost the game one to nothing when Phil Cavaretta, the first baseman of the Cubs, hit a home run.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman went to the game?

[37]

MCKIM: He went to the game.

FUCHS: Do you think he was called back to Kansas City or St. Joseph on senatorial business?

MCKIM: I don't recall. But I know that driving back he pulled into a filling station, got a little close to one of those curbs, and loused up my running board. He never said anything about it. Fred told me and he said, "Don't mention it, he's mad as a wet hen about it."

Well, after that, when the convention closed, Truman and I drove over to French Lick Springs, Indiana, to the French Lick Springs Hotel. Senator Joe Guffey of Pennsylvania was there and we had a little business to talk over with Joe. We left late in the afternoon and got there that night and went to bed. We had breakfast with Joe Guffey the next morning. Then, Joe said that President Roosevelt was coming through the state and young Tom Taggart and he and Truman drove over to meet the train. I think they met it at, oh, I don't know, up from French Lick someplace and were going to ride on to East St. Louis. Well, Truman didn't have an overcoat and I had a big, tan camel's hair coat.

[38]

So I gave Truman the coat to wear because he was going to be riding in an open car and it was raining. So I got in my car and drove down to Louisville and did a little business after telling him, "I'll meet you in East St. Louis." So I raced the train and met them in East St. Louis. Truman was wearing my coat and he was laughing because he sat in a compartment with Harry Hopkins and Ickes waiting to see the President. When the word came for him to go and be presented to the President, he picked up the coat, my coat, and went in there. When he got in there, he discovered that Hopkins and Ickes had put a quart bottle of whiskey in it and it was sticking out of the pocket. I imagine it was Hopkins because I don't think Ickes would part with a quart of whiskey.

FUCHS: Would you care to say what the discussion was with Joe Guffey?

MCKIM: My company had been trying to be admitted to the State of Pennsylvania and hadn't been successful, and I wanted to talk it over with Joe to see what we could do to get in. We got in but it was not through Joe Guffey's efforts.

[39]

FUCHS: Mr. Truman, of course, was quite close to Joe Guffey.

MCKIM: Oh, yes, yes.

FUCHS: He wasn't able to help you much on that score?

MCKIM: Well, he introduced me to Guffey and I told my story and Guffey was very sympathetic about it. However we were approaching the situation from several angles. We did get into the State of Pennsylvania; we're in there now and we do a tremendous business.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything about the high jinks in Kansas City in connection with the American Legion in 1921, and did Mr. Truman participate in any of this?

MCKIM: Well, there was a lot of high jinks going on but I don't know of any high jinks that Mr. Truman participated in, except he probably looked out his haberdashery store door and would see some of the ladies' negligees floating down from the windows of the Muehlebach Hotel. They used to lodge on the trolley wires, but that's about all of any high jinks that he

[40]

might have participated in.

FUCHS: Did you know Harry Vaughan at this time, in 1921?

MCKIM: Yes, I knew Harry Vaughan in 1917. Harry Vaughan, when I first knew him, was a sergeant in the 128th Field Artillery, which was the St. Louis outfit. Harry had gone to Westminster College and he played football there. He was playing center on the 128th football team and I was playing center on the 129th football team. Some of the fellows on my team had played against Harry in Missouri college ball, so they warned me to look out for him, that he was a pretty tough monkey. Harry, then, probably weighed 200-210 pounds; I weighed about 175 pounds. I noticed Harry in practice, and he had a little, gimpy leg, had a little drag to it. I thought I'd try out the leg and on the first play I crashed into it and down went Mr. Vaughan. And Mr. Vaughan went down the second time. He got up and he said, "Look, McKim, I know you've got a bad leg, too. You know, we're not getting paid for this. Why don't we make a deal? I won't hit you in the leg if you won't hit me in the leg."

Well, I started to laugh and we shook hands on

[41]

it and we've been very close personal friends ever since.

FUCHS: Did you have anything to do with getting the steer in the lobby of the Hotel Baltimore?

MCKIM: I did not. I heard about it, but I had nothing to do with it.

FUCHS: Did you have any advance idea that Mr. Truman was going to enter politics around 1921-22?

MCKIM: I had no advance idea of it except I was going up Baltimore Avenue one day and he was behind me and called to me. I waited and he told me then; he said, "I'm going into politics."

And I said, "As what?"

And he said, "I'm going to run for judge of the Eastern District, Judge of the county court.

And I said, "You're nuts; you're crazy; you don't belong in politics."

So he said, "Well, I'm going to do it. I've just come from 1908 Main Street and I've talked it over and I'm going to run. I think I can win out there."

So that was that.

[42]

FUCHS: Why did you feel that he didn't belong in politics?

MCKIM: Just felt that he didn't. I felt he was more the business type, but he said things hadn't been going too well in the haberdashery and he was going into politics. I think he'd always had a hankering for politics. He'd been a precinct worker out in the county, where he lived. He was a natural for it. When he ran for re-election, he was defeated. I remember I was in Raleigh, North Carolina when I heard that he'd been defeated, and I sent him a wire of congratulations, that I hoped he'd stay out of politics. But he didn't.

FUCHS: Did you participate in his campaign in 1922 in any way?

MCKIM: One small part. There was a fellow named Clarence England ran a garage about 14th and McGee Street. I think that Clarence had been a flyer in World War I. Anyway, he had one of those old jenny planes that was held together with bailing wire, and at Truman's suggestion, I made a deal with Clarence to take Truman up and drop some leaflets over a picnic at Oak Grove, Missouri. Well, we got them started off and got the leaflets loaded in, took off from the pasture, and

[43]

circled around this picnic at Oak Grove. Then they were to come down in a pasture right next to the picnic grounds. They came down all right but Clarence had a little trouble stopping the plane and it ended up about three feet from a barbed wire fence. Our candidate got out and draped himself over this barbed wire fence and gave forth with a lot of things I know he didn't eat. He was as green as grass. I think it was his first flight, but he mounted the rostrum and made a speech.

FUCHS: What did you think of his speaking ability in those days?

MCKIM: I didn't think he had any. He was a very poor speaker, but he developed.

FUCHS: Did you remain in Kansas City long enough in '22 to vote for him?

MCKIM: No. I did not. That's when I moved to St. Louis. In fact, I never voted for Harry Truman until he ran for Vice President, when I voted for him and Roosevelt, and then again in '48.

[44]

FUCHS: Was there any special collections taken up through the battery for Mr. Truman, that you recall, for campaign expenses?

MCKIM: None that I know of, at least I wasn't asked to participate. Which campaign are you talking about?

FUCHS: Well, I'm talking about '22.

MCKIM: I don't know of any. I couldn't have contributed anyway.

FUCHS: Or any of the campaigns for county judge. Did they ever solicit in the battery?

MCKIM: No. I was away from there all that time.

FUCHS: You had a story about your son and Margaret being born around the same time?

MCKIM: No, they weren't born at the same time.

FUCHS: Well, I've forgotten just how that story did go.

MCKIM: Well, Truman and Mrs. Truman came out to our apartment. We had a little kitchenette apartment at 3515 Paseo. They came out one evening and we sat around

[45]

and played a little bridge; at that time, my oldest boy, Eddie, was just a baby. We had a nice evening and, oh, I suppose, a few weeks later, we went out to their home in Independence, 219 North Delaware. I know we put Eddie on a pillow on the davenport while we played bridge. I guess it was several weeks later, I was going up Baltimore Avenue, Mr. Truman was behind me and called to me, and I waited for him. When he came up he looked mad. I said, "What's the matter with you?"

And he said, "I'm awfully tired of you high-toning me."

I said, "What do you mean, high-toning you?"

He said, "You've been high-toning me just too long and I'm not going to stand for it; I'm not going to take any more of it."

And I said, "Well, what in the hell is the matter with you?"

"Well," he said, "you and that boy. I just want you to know that I'm going to have a boy, too."

The boy turned out to be Margaret.

FUCHS: Do you remember anything about Mr. Truman and the Ku Klux Klan around 1922?

[46]

MCKIM: I knew that something happened there, but I was not around to get the firsthand information about it. I was present, however, in the 1944 campaign when we were in Chicago and the story broke in the papers that Spencer Salisbury who had been captain of E Battery of the 129th had given out the report that Harry S. Truman had belonged to the Ku Klux Klan. Well, Matt Connelly and I had been out to dinner and as we came back to the special train -- the special car was sitting on the siding there -- the place was alive with reporters. They wanted to wake Truman up to find out if he'd ever belonged to the Klan. We wouldn't stand for that because it was around 11 or 11:30 at night and they said, "Well, what do you know about him belonging to the Klan?"

"Well," I said, "I couldn't imagine Harry Truman belonging to the Klan because first of all, in World War I he commanded a battery that was mainly Irish Catholic boys, and another thing, there are two Irish Catholics traveling with him on this trip, and if he's a Ku Kluxer he couldn't have that."

FUCHS: Does the name Harry Hoffman mean anything to you?

MCKIM: Harry Hoffman? No.

[47]

FUCHS: Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Truman's interim jobs or businesses from the time he was defeated in '24, during the years he was out of office?

MCKIM: I think that he represented a Good Roads Association in the interim period. I think also he was representing some building and loan association, but my mind is a little vague on that period of time.

FUCHS: You were in Louisville until about '27 and then you went...?

MCKIM: No, I left Louisville the latter part of '25 and came back to Kansas City, and in September of 1927 I moved to Omaha. I went with Mutual of Omaha at that time.

FUCHS: You weren't able to vote here in '26, though? You hadn't been a resident long enough?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: Do you remember anything about that '26 campaign that stands out in your memory?

MCKIM: No.

[48]

FUCHS: Did you ever discuss Mr. Truman's oil ventures with him?

MCKIM: No, I never did. I just knew he was in business with a man named Morgan and that's about all.

FUCHS: What about Spencer Salisbury? You probably know that there seems to have arisen some sort of a feud or at least some differences between them.

MCKIM: Well, I don't know whether I should say it right out for the benefit of this recorder, but in my opinion, he's an eighteen caret crook. We used to call E Battery, which he commanded, "Carranza and his forty thieves," that was the nickname of his battery, the captain and his battery. Nobody had any respect for him at all. He came out to reserve camp a couple of times. I knew he used to bring a half-pint of whiskey with him and he'd take home a half-pint. One time he arranged a snipe hunt. He picked on a fellow named Captain Calhoun who looked like a big yokel, and he was going to take him on a snipe hunt. So. Cal told me about it and we framed a deal. We let Calhoun go along and play the part. "Carranza" and his mob

[49]

took him out and planted him with the sack while they were going out to herd the snipes in. In the meantime, Frank Fisher, "Cokey" Cohagen, and myself stole their horses. Carranza was a little mad when he had to walk back from those hills around Fort Riley!

FUCHS: Did you ever discuss Salisbury's activities in connection with the Community Savings and Loan Association in which he was associated with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: Do you recall Mr. Truman announcing or talking about, in 1931, his being a candidate for governor?

MCKIM: No, but I thought that he would be. I thought that probably he would have been in there in place of Governor Park, I think it was. In fact, I felt sure. I think there was a candidate, Wilson wasn't it, who suddenly died right in the middle of the campaign?

FUCHS: I know who you mean and I can't think of his name.

MCKIM: Anyway, I was in St. Louis and I dropped off at Kansas City. I called up Mrs. Truman and laughingly

[50]

told her I thought Harry might be picked to be the candidate for governor, and I said, "I want an invitation to the inaugural ball."

FUCHS: What did she say?

MCKIM: Well, I don't recall what she said, but I think it was at that time a Judge Park from up in Northeast Missouri was picked and was elected.

FUCHS: You went to reserve training camp in Minnesota one time, I believe it was 1932?

MCKIM: Yes, Camp Ripley.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything that occurred in that particular session?

MCKIM: Oh yes, a lot occurred up there at that session. John Snyder was ordered there; Ted Marks was ordered, and I was ordered. Truman was there. Harry Vaughan was not ordered there that year, but he lived in Milwaukee and drove over to spend a couple of days with us. I know I was recuperating from two broken ribs and when Vaughan came in he stuck his hand out: "How are you, you old so-and-so," and I went to shake hands with him

[51]

and he dug his right arm right into my ribs and cracked them all over again. We had a poker game there one Sunday morning and it was quite an affair. In one particular hand, Truman sat there with a pair of sixes (it was stud poker). Vaughan had an ace, king showing; I had an ace in the hole and a king showing; and the fellow on my left, a second lieutenant named Henderson, had a pair of deuces showing. The others around the table -- I don't know, they didn't have much of anything. So I thought it would be a good time then to run a whizzer. Truman bet out and the fellows on my right stayed and I raised. Well, the deuces stayed, and Vaughan down at the other end said, "I don't think you've got anything," so he raised me. Truman stayed once and when it got around to me I raised again. The deuces dropped out (we had a limit of three raises anyhow) and Vaughan stayed and Truman dropped out with a pair of sixes. That left just Vaughan and me. Well it got down to the fifth card and Vaughan and I each had an ace, king, and then some smaller cards. My fifth card was an 8 over his 7: So we had a lot of fun kidding Truman about dropping out with a winning hand. At the regimental dinner, John Snyder and I cooked up a

[52]

little deal. We went into town and got one of those miniature decks of cards and took the identical pair of sixes that he had out of the deck. Then we wrote out a special order and we called it "The Military Order of the Flying Coat Tails." We got some blue ribbon and pasted these two sixes onto the blue ribbon and we decorated the Colonel with "The Military Order of the Flying Coat Tails." He still has that.

FUCHS: That would be a very interesting item to have for our museum.

MCKIM: Well, he's got it.

FUCHS: I hope we'll get it some day. Did anything else happen up there that...

MCKIM: Oh, we used to go to Breezy Point. It was run by Captain Billy Fawcett. Do you remember Captain Billy's Whiz Bangs, or are you too young for that? Well, it was a magazine, kind of a spicy little magazine called Captain Billy's Whiz Bangs (Now Fawcett Publications -- True Magazine). It was near Nisswa or Pequot, Minnesota. We went up there several times for dinner. Captain Billy was quite a shot with a shotgun. He was

[53]

on the American Olympic team at one time and he had some traps out there, so we did a little shooting with him. He had a couple of guests, one of whom was Dr. Joe Mayo, the son of Dr. Charlie Mayo. Dr. Joe was killed a few years later in an automobile accident. He was the brother of Dr. Chuck Mayo who just retired from the Mayo Foundation. We did a little trap shooting at that time, but we went up there almost every night for dinner. It was a thirty-five or forty mile drive.

FUCHS: It was on a lake?

MCKIM: Yes, it was on Pelican Lake.

FUCHS: Did Mr. Truman trap shoot?

MCKIM: Well, he did that once, but he was more successful with playing the slot machines. We stopped at a barber shop at Brainerd going up, and he hit the jackpot in a machine in the lower lobby of the hotel. And then he hit the jackpot up at Breezy Point the same night.

FUCHS: Did you ever hunt with Mr. Truman?

[54]

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: You also attended the summer encampments at Fort Riley, Kansas with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Do any of those stand out in your memory?

MCKIM: Oh, not particularly. I thought it was a lot of fun.

FUCHS: What about Jake Vardaman, was he in the Reserves?

MCKIM: Jake was originally an artilleryman and in World War II he went into the Navy where he was a Beathmaster. Truman had him come back from Okinawa and made him a captain. In fact, I helped pin his "chickens" on his shoulder. Harry Vaughan used to call him the "picket line Navy," because he was an artilleryman turned Navy man. Jake was the naval aide to the President while I was there.

FUCHS: Where was it that he became acquainted with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: That I don't know. The first time I knew Jake he

[55]

was head of the RFC office in St. Louis. He was the son of old Senator Vardaman of Mississippi, but I didn't know Jake in the army. I knew him afterwards in St. Louis. Truman later appointed him to the Federal Reserve Board for a fourteen year term. I haven't seen or heard of Jake since.

FUCHS: Was he quite a capable man?

MCKIM: As far as I know he was. I didn't have any particular contacts with him.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman was finishing his second term as presiding judge in '34 and decided to run for senator. What do you know of that?

MCKIM: Well, all I know about that is that I was in St. Louis one night and I was headed back to Omaha. When I got down to the train to take the Wabash to Omaha our manager in St. Louis met me there and said the Home Office had called him to find me and direct me to go to Atchison, Kansas. Our agent out there had failed to send in the premium money that he had collected. So, I switched my reservation and went to Kansas City. I got in and I went to the President

[56]

Hotel, and I started calling for Mr. Truman and found him in Independence. The court was sitting in Independence that month. I asked him if he had a car I could borrow and he said, "Yes." He said, "Where are you?"

I said, "I'm at the President Hotel:"

"Well," he said, "the Board of Equalization is meeting and I'll be down there pretty soon. What's your room number," and I told him.

In about a half an hour or so a knock came at the door and it was Mr. Truman. We exchanged greetings and talked for a little bit, and I said, "I've got to go up to Atchison; our man up there apparently has gone south with some money. I've got to go up and see if I can find him."

He had the keys dangling on his finger, so I took them and I said, "Where's the car?"

And he said, "Out the 14th Street side of the hotel."

As we walked through the lobby I said, "Where can I leave you off?"

And he said, "Oh, I'm going with you."

I said, "What's happened to the Board of Equalization?"

[57]

He said, "They're still in session; they'll be there when we get back."

So, we drove up to Atchison and I looked all around for our man but he'd really gone south. He was nowhere to be found. So, driving back we were talking politics and Truman said, "What would you do? Here's the situation. I will have had eight years as county judge and under the system of the Democratic organization, that's all I can have there. The only other job, the best paying job in the county, is county collector. I've talked to Tom Pendergast and Tom says that I can have that job for eight years, and it pays about $20,000 a year. On the other hand, there is a new congressional district that's right out in my part of the county, and that job pays $10,000 a year. Tom says if I take that, I can have it the rest of my life. Now what would you do?"

And I said, "Well, if you took the collector's job at $20,000 a year and you have it just eight years, when you finish you're still a young man and you're through politically. There isn't any other job in the county that you can have. On the other hand, if you take the congressional job, it pays just half as much money,

[58]

but you can keep it the rest of your life. You'll be going to Washington; you'll be in the big swim there and nobody can tell what will happen. If I were you, I would take the congressional job."

"Well," he said, "you're telling me what I want to hear."

"Well," I said, "I don't give a damn what you want to hear. You asked me and I told you." So, I told him then, "I'm going to file for the Nebraska legislature."

He said, "When are you going to file?"

And I said, "By the way, who's going to be the senator from Missouri?"

And he said, "Oh, Jim Aylward. Jim's been a party wheel horse; he's been state chairman and national committeeman and all, and he's picked to be the senator."

So. I guess it was a couple of weeks later or so, I got a long distance call from Mr. Truman and he said, "Did you file for the legislature?"

And I said, "I sure did."

"Well," he said, "I was down at Jeff City today and I filed."

I said, "Good."

[59]

He said, "But I filed for the Senate."

I said, "What happened to Jim Aylward?"

"Well," he said, "Jim has a very lucrative law practice and he felt that he couldn't afford to be a senator. So Tom told me that if I was so hell-bent on going to Washington to run for the Senate. Jim Pendergast, I think, put the bee in his bonnet. Anyway, I filed for the Senate."

"So," I said, "Good luck to you."

So that is what I know about his decision to run.

FUCHS: You didn't hear anything of his aspirations to run for governor?

MCKIM: No, no, I thought in my own mind that that was what he would do, that he would be governor instead of senator, but he filed for the Senate and he had Jack Cochran , a Congressman from St. Louis, and "Tuck" Milligan, as opponents. Truman got out in his car and just made every county seat in the state. He talked to the courthouse crowd and he could talk their language. He won in the three-way fight.

FUCHS: Were you around any in that campaign?

[60]

MCKIM: No, I had a little campaign on my own.

FUCHS: How did you come out in that?

MCKIM: Well, on the day after election, my opponent called me up and congratulated me and I said, "What's the score?"

He said, "Well, all but one precinct is in and you have a lead of fifteen votes."

And I said, "Let's wait and see what happens when that precinct comes in." That precinct came in and gave him a majority of fifteen votes and it was a tie. We had to wait about two weeks until they counted the absentee ballots and I won by fifteen votes. My opponent's name was Mike Flannigan.

FUCHS: It sounds like you were pretty close friends.

MCKIM: We weren't. In fact, we didn't know each other before we got into the campaign. We have been since, though.

FUCHS: What had been your political experience in Nebraska that led up to your running for the legislature?

MCKIM: None. I just decided to do it.

FUCHS: You were known through your business or certain

[61]

activities or...?

MCKIM: Oh, yes -- well, I was known in my district and I was the first and only Democrat elected in that district. After I was elected, in my session of the legislature, the unicameral legislature came into being. The Constitutional Amendment creating it was carried in the same election in which I was elected. Then I was on the unicameral committee in the legislature which set up the number of seats in the one house legislature. So, I was elected to a job and then they railroaded the job right out from under me. They had to change the districts all around, and it didn't make any difference, anyway, because I moved out of my district. Then I ran for lieutenant governor in 1938 and I was defeated.

FUCHS: Were you defeated in the primary?

MCKIM: In the primary. I was defeated by a fellow named Terry Carpenter who had been a congressman and had run for the United States Senate two years before. He had also been a candidate for governor and when Terry got into the race, there were eleven in it. Terry ran first and I ran second, but they didn't pay off for

[62]

second place. Mr. Truman came out from Washington and made a radio speech for me.

FUCHS: Oh, is that right?

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: I wonder if that was recorded anyplace?

MCKIM: It was over radio station WOW. Harry thinks it helped defeat me, but I don't think it had any bearing on it whatever. I was defeated anyway, when Terry Carpenter got into the race.

FUCHS: Did he go on to become the lieutenant governor?

MCKIM: No. He was the Democratic candidate for lieutenant governor and the people split their tickets and elected a Republican lieutenant governor, with a Democratic governor.

FUCHS: Who was the governor?

MCKIM: Roy Cochran.

FUCHS: What other assignments did you have in that last becameral legislature?

[63]

MCKIM: Well, I was secretary of the Committee on Committees; I was chairman of the Miscellaneous Subjects Committee; I was a member of the Finance Ways and Means committee. I was the Democratic whip.

FUCHS: Very interesting.

MCKIM: I handled the parimutuel bill in the House for Ak-Sar-Ben, which is a civic organization in Omaha, which backed the parimutuel law. I handled it in the House. Senator Sam Howell from my same district in Omaha, handled it in the Senate. So, I was kind of a co-father of the parimutuel law in Nebraska.

FUCHS: Do you know who managed Mr. Truman's campaign in 1934?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: Had you met Fred Canfil up to that time?

MCKIM: Yes, I used to meet Fred at Reserve camp. Fred was a cavalryman. That's where Truman met him, too, I think.

FUCHS: Is that right?

[64]

MCKIM: Yes. Then he and Fred got to be pretty thick. Fred was kind of his right hand man on building the Jackson County Courthouse in Kansas City, Missouri.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything else of interest about Fred Canfil?

MCKIM: Well, there's just so much about Fred Canfil. He was just Fred Canfil and quite a character in his own right. He was rather mysterious. He kept his private life pretty much to himself.

FUCHS: Why do you say that?

MCKIM: Well, I don't know yet whether he was married. I haven't any idea. I knew Fred very well, but I don't know whether he had a wife or not. I don't know where he lived. He was pretty closemouthed about a lot of things.

FUCHS: Did he seem to be a capable man?

MCKIM: Yes, I think he did a tremendous job in helping Truman build the courthouse. Truman depended on him an awful lot. I think he was then the superintendent of it after it was opened and completed, before he was

[65]

made United States Marshal.

FUCHS: Did you know a Paul Dillon from St. Louis?

MCKIM: I've met Paul Dillon, yes. He claims to have been a campaign manager for Truman. I think he did some work in St. Louis. I didn't know him well.

FUCHS: You don't know anything about the relationship between him and Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: No, I don't know a thing about it.

FUCHS: You mentioned in a conversation that we had the other day that Margaret Truman had a heart condition. Can you elaborate on that please?

MCKIM: Well, I know that when she was a small girl the Boss was quite concerned about her. She had this heart condition and was very sickly and they tried everything. Finally Harry sent Mrs. Truman and Margaret down to a place between Gulfport and Biloxi, Mississippi. They lived with a family down there right almost on sea level. The idea being that sea level conditions would break up the heart condition, and apparently it did. I understand that they lived there about a year, because

[66]

afterwards when Mr. Truman and I started on the campaign in 1944, we drove out from New Orleans to visit this family. Also, on the same trip, he had a nephew who was in the naval training station at Gulfport and we visited with him.

FUCHS: Would you recall the family's name?

MCKIM: No, I wouldn't.

FUCHS: Was this when he was senator?

MCKIM: This was when he was a senator.

FUCHS: Had they been living in Washington prior to this or had they stayed in Independence?

MCKIM: No, now wait a minute. Let's see. Whether it was in the last years as county judge or whether it was in his first years as senator, I wouldn't say which, because I don't know the years. But I know they were down there because the Boss was quite concerned about her. I was with him in St. Louis one time and put him on the train for New Orleans. I know we walked up and down the station platform at Tower Grove Station in St. Louis, and talked about the situation. He was worried then,

[67]

but he was going down to see how they were getting along.

FUCHS: You say you are sure he was senator?

MCKIM: I'm pretty sure he was senator.

FUCHS: Does the name Dave Berenstein ring a bell with you at all?

MCKIM: Not at all.

FUCHS: There's a story about a practical joke you played on Harry Vaughan. Can you date that rather closely and recount it?

MCKIM: No, I can't date it. I just don't know what year it was. The way it started was, I was in Washington and the Senator said, "Instead of going direct to Omaha going through Chicago, why don't you come with me to St. Louis. Then you can go to Kansas City and then on to Omaha. The fare is the same whichever way you go."

So, I said, "All right, I'll go with you to St. Louis."

[68]

So we got on the B & O. The train was due into St. Louis sometime in early afternoon of the next day and I cooked up a deal with the Senator. I reminded the Senator about the time at Fort Riley when the regimental picture of the 77th Field Artillery was being taken. Major Vaughan was the commanding officer of the 77th Field Artillery, known as the "Sleeping 77th," and I was the adjutant. Anyway, some chairs had to be brought out for this group picture and I didn't sit in one of the chairs, I was standing. Vaughan, then, after the picture-taking ceremony was over, ordered me to carry his chair back to the barracks. Well, I objected strenuously, but I finally ended up carrying the chair. So, on the train coming out I told the Senator about the episode and I said, "I'm going to make that Vaughan pay for that."

He said, "John Snyder is going to meet the train."

And I said, "If John Snyder meets the train Harry Vaughan will be with him." I said, "You play along and don't pay any attention to me."

And he said, "What are you going to do?"

I said, "I'm going to play drunk and make that

[69]

Vaughan take care of me."

So, Truman got off the train first and Snyder met him. I got off and I was hilarious. I was a drunk of the old school. Snyder looked at me and he said to Vaughan, "Harry, you take care of that. I'll get the Senator out of here. We can't let him be seen with that McKim."

So, Snyder hustles Truman on out to the taxicab area in the St. Louis station, leaving Vaughan to take care of me. Well, I became quite a problem for Vaughan. We got in the cab, the four of us, and all the way down Market Street I was waving to everybody on the sidewalks and having a hilarious time. Snyder was very, very much put out with me and Vaughan didn't know whether to hit me or throw me out. Well, when we pulled up in front of the Missouri Athletic Club, Snyder said to Vaughan: "You take care of him and I'll get the Senator in and register. Then when you see us at the elevator, you bring him in."

So, I was quite a problem to get in there. Vaughan waited until they'd signed in and been assigned a suite, then he got me into the elevator, and it was about eight floors up. Where the elevators stopped, there was a

[70]

big, long hall; when you got to that you had to go to the left the same distance down to the corner suite. Well, just as the elevator stopped, I pitched out onto the floor right on my face. Well, Vaughan said, "What a mess this is." So he has to pick me up. Snyder hustles the Senator down to the suite. Vaughan picked me up and he had to carry me the whole length of that hall and then as far again down to the corner. He got in, threw me on the davenport, and he said, "There, sleep it off, you drunken so-and-so."

And as soon as I hit the davenport I stood up and saluted him, and I said, "Thanks, Harry, for the ride. You will make me carry that chair, won't you."

You never saw such a look of astonishment on Vaughan's face. Then Snyder just busted out laughing. Truman couldn't contain himself. He just sat down and almost cried. Well, Truman has told that story around Washington. I know he told it to Admiral Leahy, and Leahy said, "I think that's the funniest story I ever heard." And Truman has told me since that, "Vaughan is still laying for you on that trick."

In this Steinberg's book he claims that I weighed 235 pounds. Well, I never weighed near that in my life.

[71]

I think at the time I did weigh about 185 pounds. But that was still a pretty good load for Vaughan to carry.

FUCHS: It's a good story. Did you know Victor Messall?

MCKIM: Yes. I didn't know him until after he'd become secretary to Senator Truman. He'd been secretary for some congressman down in Southern Missouri. The Senator needed a secretary and he hired Vic Messall. I knew Vic during that time.

FUCHS: Do you know what caused him to leave Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: No. I don't know what caused it. I heard some things but it would be purely hearsay on my part, so I wouldn't be competent enough to advance any ideas on it.

FUCHS: You haven't discussed it with Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: No, I have no.

FUCHS: Did you participate in the 1940 campaign in any way?

MCKIM: No, I did not.

[72]

FUCHS: Did you from your political experience and knowing the situation, probably, in Kansas City, feel that he would or would not win?

MCKIM: Oh, I thought he'd win, and he did. It was a pretty tough fight, though, with Maurice Milligan.

FUCHS: Yes. Did you know Maurice Milligan?

MCKIM: No, I did not.

FUCHS: What about Barney Dickmann, the mayor in St. Louis? Was he always...?

MCKIM: Well, I don't know whether he was always a Truman supporter or not. I've heard that he kicked over the traces a few times. I don't know; I know Barney and I liked him very much. In fact, my youngest daughter and his adopted daughter were in school together and I see Barney every now and then, and I like him. I think that, at one time, the St. Louis outfit kind of went the other way. I gather it was a little of the doublecross, but I think Bob Hannegan kind of saved the day there in the final analysis.

FUCHS: How did Mr. Truman become acquainted with Dwight

[73]

Griswold?

MCKIM: In Reserve camp. Dwight was from Gordon, Nebraska. He was a banker and also a partner in the newspaper there. His partner in the newspaper was a Colonel Joe Leedom. Dwight had been a member of the House of Representatives in Nebraska, was a colonel of artillery, and we met him at Reserve camps. Dwight and I were very good friends; in fact, when I was in the legislature I was the Democratic whip in the House, and when Dwight came along as a Republican governor, I could do more with Dwight as a Republican than I could with the Democrats. Then when I was running for lieutenant governor, I made a swing out through the state and I got out to Gordon, Nebraska, and I checked into the hotel. I was shown into a room in the hotel, and when they opened the door there was Joe Leedom and Dwight Griswold sitting there waiting for me. They said, "We can't be seen with you, but we've got all the Democrats coming up here to see you pretty soon." I liked Dwight very much.

FUCHS: Do you recall a date you and Mr. Truman made with him in 1932 at Camp Ripley?

[74]

MCKIM: A date?

FUCHS: Yes, it's mentioned in a letter. When he was governor of Nebraska in November, 1940, he mentioned that you and Mr. Truman hoped to keep a date that you'd made in 1932 at Ripley.

MCKIM: As I recall we were going up to the state house and visit him in his mansion, but we never got around to it.

FUCHS: In other words, as early as '32 you were thinking that he might be governor some day.

MCKIM: Dwight had run for governor and missed, so he ran again and made it later.

FUCHS: In November, 1940, in a letter to Senator Truman, you mentioned that "Chick won by 16,000 votes in the Nebraska election," and Mr. Truman replied that it was "certainly a grand thing that Chick won." Who was Chick?

MCKIM: Charles F. McLaughlin was the congressman from Omaha, 2nd District in Nebraska.

FUCHS: Was he a close friend of Mr. Truman's?

[75]

MCKIM: No, he was a good friend of mine and he had met Truman through me. In fact, when Truman came up there when I was running for lieutenant governor, Truman made the rounds one Sunday with me to a lot of political meetings, picnics and all, and Chick was along. He was making the same tour that I was. Chick was defeated later, and I think Roosevelt appointed him to the Mexican Claims Commission. He was on that commission for quite a while, and Truman later appointed him a Federal judge in Washington. He was a very capable man.

FUCHS: Did you have a part in that?

MCKIM: In what?

FUCHS: In his getting the appointment. Did he ask you to recommend him?

MCKIM: Oh. I don't think Chick needed any recommendation. Truman knew enough about him, because after Chick was elected in Congress they got to be pretty good friends.

FUCHS: You mentioned matters about the war, the poor draft law, England's entrance into the war, and so forth, in March, 1941. I just wondered how Mr. Truman felt,

[76]

as you remember, about the situation?

MCKIM: What situation?

FUCHS: Well, about England. That was before we were in the war. Did Mr. Truman, as you remember it, in discussing things with him, feel that we should do everything to stay out of the war...

MCKIM: I don't recall anything about it, whether we even talked about it or not.

FUCHS: You don't remember ever talking about it.

MCKIM: Of course, being Irish, I distrusted the British on any point. This latest episode bears me out.

FUCHS: You have reference to what?

MCKIM: You know what I have reference to. That they're going to deal with Cuba regardless of whether we like it or not.

FUCHS: Yes. Who was Bill Kirby?

MCKIM: Bill Kirby was, oh, I think he was a councilman in Kansas City one time. Bill was a Reserve officer.

[77]

He was out at a couple of camps where we were. Truman knew him very well.

FUCHS: You wrote Mr. Truman that he [Kirby] was the subject of a discussion at a battery meeting in March, 1941, and said that he had doublecrossed Truman once before.

MCKIM: I think he had but I don't recall the circumstances of it.

FUCHS: You don't recall anything about this doublecross or the previous doublecross, if there was a second one?

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: What does the name Edward Burke mean to you?

MCKIM: Edward Burke was the senator from Nebraska and he was elected to the United States Senate the same time that Truman was elected from Missouri. Burke was the one, I think, who coined the phrase the "New Deal." He used that in a speech up in South Dakota. Burke's senatorial office was right across the hall from Truman in the Senate office building. They got to

[78]

be pretty good friends. After Truman was elected he came up to Omaha and I took him over to Burke's office and introduced him. Neither had been sworn in. This was in the interim between elections.

FUCHS: He was a Democrat?

MCKIM: He was a Democrat. Then I helped him in his campaign for re-election. He was defeated and then turned Republican. He's practicing law in Washington now.

FUCHS: Why did he turn Republican?

MCKIM: I don't know.

FUCHS: In a letter of March 14, 1940, you mentioned the Battle of Dugny. What is the significance of that in World War I history?

MCKIM: Well, Dugny was a railhead close to Camp La Beholle, and after the Armistice we took all of our guns down there and put them in a gun park close to the railroad station. Later we had to go down to clean up those guns. They had been sitting out there for quite a while, and while we were doing this work some Frenchman came along with a five gallon demijohn full of cognac, which he started to peddle

[79]

and some of the boys got pretty high. So we knocked off for lunch and went into town. There was a headquarters of some infantry outfit there and some fights started. One of our fellows who was pretty tight suddenly left the group, ran over and started slugging some strange soldiers. So, the fight started there and pretty soon the whole battery was in it. Our boys went into this headquarters and threw papers, records -- they just tore the place apart. Well, Vic Householder was the first lieutenant and the officer in charge. I've talked to Vic since about this but he doesn't remember. But I remember because I had the job to do. I hadn't had a drink, not one drink, so I was sober. So, while all of this brawl was going on,, Vic called me around behind the building and he said, "You go out there and get them and line them up and we'll take them home."

And I said, "I'm not in charge of this detail; I'm not a non-commissioned officer."

"You go out there and do it. "

I said, "I don't have a whistle."

He said, "Here, you take my whistle."

I said, "Well, lieutenant, why don't you go out

[80]

there and do it yourself?"

He said, "They're liable to tear me apart, too." He said, "You take this whistle and you go out there and line these boys up."

Well, I went out as I had done in hundreds of times before; I just cut across the street, blew the whistle, "Fall in," and they came to just like that. They fell in and Householder came out from behind this building and I saluted him, "Battery's in order, sir." And up the road we started. Well, we were picking up drunks all the way for the next mile. We had a fourgon wagon, and we had to load some of them in the fourgon wagon; they were just out stiff.

FUCHS: What kind of a wagon is that.

MCKIM: Fourgon, it's a French cargo wagon. So, anyway, they all got extra duty the next day except me.

FUCHS: I didn't quite follow you, you say that Vic Householder doesn't remember this?

MCKIM: I brought it to Vic's attention the one time that I talked to him here, but he has no recollection of it at all. He remembers the Battle of Dugny, but he doesn't

[81]

remember calling me back in behind that building and saying, "Here, you form them and you get them out." He doesn't remember that. It's nice not to remember!

FUCHS: I've seen in some letters, I believe they were from Householder to Mr. Truman, where he said, "May the spirit of Dugny never die." That would be in reference to that battle.

MCKIM: Yes. He put me in a hot spot there. I was not a non-commissioned officer; I had no business out there, but I was the one who had to get them together. They fell right in with it. They were a little too drunk to know whether I had any authority or not.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman wrote you in 1940, in May, that Vic Messall and he had just gotten their headquarters set up at Sedalia, and he also said that it looked as if "our boys with their illegal hunting in Nebraska are really up against it." What did that have reference to?

MCKIM: I think some of the boys were up there and they got caught either out of season or over their limits and their guns were confiscated.

[82]

FUCHS: Who would that have been?

MCKIM: I don't know. I don't recall. I know there's some correspondence on it.

FUCHS: Yes. Do you know if they got them back?

MCKIM: I don't think they did.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman seemed a little bit more than interested in it, concerned about it.

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Do you know Ed Condon of Maryville?

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Who was he?

MCKIM: Ed Condon was a private in D Battery. He ran a drugstore; well, I guess he still does up at Maryville. We used to see him when our Reserve camp would be at Riley, usually the Missouri National Guard would be

[83]

there about the same time. Then Ed went back to Washington where he was a colonel attached to the National Guard Bureau there. He is out now and retired, and the last time I saw him he was back running the drugstore.

FUCHS: He was fairly close to Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: Yes, I would say so. One of Truman's boys, if you put it that way.

FUCHS: You don't know how active he was politically?

MCKIM: No, I don't.

FUCHS: In August, 1940, in reference to the primary election victory you said, "It looks like Vaughan got you in bad, or does the Hatch law apply to those senators who voted against it." Do you recall what that had reference to?

MCKIM: No, I don't remember now.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman said in September, 1940, that he had had a lucky break having been assigned as one of the senators to attend the funeral of the Speaker. I assume he meant

[84]

the Speaker of the House who had died, and I can't remember who that would have been in 1940. "He died at an opportune moment for me. As you know, we always have a grand time on these state funeral parties."

MCKIM: Who was it, it was the one before Mr. Sam.

FUCHS: You don't recall anything about this though, why it was particularly favorable to him?

Who was "Cue Ball?"

MCKIM: "Cue Ball" -- Harry Whitney of Kansas City. He was a private in D Battery. I think he is a magistrate in Kansas City now.

FUCHS: Close to Mr. Truman as one of the boys?

MCKIM: Quite a character -- one of the boys.

FUCHS: Quite a character you say?

MCKIM: Oh, yes. Quite a character.

FUCHS: Any anecdotes relating to him and Mr. Truman or yourself that you recall?

MCKIM: No. He had a bald dome, that's why he was called

[85]

"Cue Ball."

FUCHS: Apparently you had some opinions about Leon Henderson and Harold Ickes and Mr. Truman said that he would talk to you about them some time. Do you recall anything of his feelings?

MCKIM: I don't know whether we ever got around to talk about them or not.

FUCHS: What were your feelings about them?

MCKIM: I didn't think much of either one of them.

FUCHS: You didn't.

MCKIM: No.

FUCHS: Did you know them?

MCKIM: No. I met Ickes later when he was a member of the Cabinet, as Secretary of the Interior. He was the old curmudgeon, you know, but I would prefer that anything along that line, anything that I would know would be strictly hearsay and you can get a much better picture of him from Mr. Truman. I understand that when Ickes would come out of Cabinet meetings, he would immediately

[86]

relay any pertinent information to Drew Pearson. They planted one on him one time, gave it only to him, and Drew Pearson had it, so they had him pinned down on it.

FUCHS: Do you know where you heard this?

MCKIM: No. I was there when it was going on. They suspected that Ickes was the fellow that was peddling the information to Pearson.

FUCHS: Oh, this was when you were in the White House?

MCKIM: I was there, yes. So, I think the Boss planted a piece of information with Ickes only and it got to Pearson, so he knew damn well it was Ickes who did it.

FUCHS: That's interesting.

In Mr. Truman's second term as senator, I think you expressed, several times, opinions about labor unions. What do you think...?

MCKIM: I think about labor unions...that the idea of labor, union labor, is fine, but some of the leaders they've got are just hoodlums. That's still my opinion of them. I think that this Hoffa is a threat to the whole United States. That's just my opinion.

[87]

FUCHS: What did Mr. Truman think about that?

MCKIM: Oh, now, I don't know about that; you'll have to ask Mr. Truman.

FUCHS: I thought perhaps you'd talked it over because in one letter he refers to the power being concentrated in the hands "of a few men who handle these sheep who make up labor unions." I thought perhaps...

MCKIM: No, I guess that was just in our correspondence. I don't think there was any...you know, at this late date it's pretty hard to form any opinion of what Mr. Truman said to me or I said to Mr. Truman or what particular event of the times would cause me to make a comment like that.

FUCHS: Well, that was his comment but I understand you. Sometimes, though, when you mention something it rings a bell, but I don't expect you to remember all these things; I'm certain that I wouldn't.

You and Mr. Truman went to an all Star -- Chicago Bears football game in 1942. Do you recall that and did anything memorable happen there?

MCKIM: Well, 1942?

[88]

FUCHS: Yes, August 28.

MCKIM: Yes. We went there; we stayed at the Ambassador East Hotel and let's see...we went to two of them up there, I don't know just which -- different things happened, but I think at that particular time we went out to the ball game and it was so foggy that we were right down at, about the third row and we couldn't see to the sideline. It was terrible. I made the remark that "between the fog and the grog, I can't see the ball game."

FUCHS: Did Mr. Truman like to have a little drink at a ball game?

MCKIM: This was before the ball game. We had a few before dinner.

FUCHS: I see. You frequently refer to the "L.A. Colonel". I have an idea who that might be.

MCKIM: Well, that's it; your idea is correct.

FUCHS: That's Vaughan?

MCKIM: Vaughan.

[89]

FUCHS: What do you know of Jerome Walsh?

MCKIM: Oh. I've known Jerome Walsh since he was a little kid. He was the son of Frank P. Walsh, quite a famous criminal lawyer in Kansas City who became famous in the famous Hyde Case, Dr. Hyde. Later Frank Walsh, I think, was a member of the labor board in Washington. Jerome was one of his sons; he had a son Frank, the oldest boy, who died, oh, along about 1923 or '24. There were two other boys, John and Jim. Jerome became a lawyer. I think he went out to California one time and defended a fellow named Hickman, a famous criminal trial. Jerome then became a congressman, I believe, and he's still around Kansas City, I think, practicing law.

FUCHS: Was he particularly friendly to Mr. Truman?

MCKIM: I don't know; I never saw them together.

FUCHS: What about Dick Duncan? How did he and Mr. Truman become acquainted?

MCKIM: Dick Duncan was a congressman from St. Joseph, Missouri, and I think that being a Missourian and a member of the congressional delegation from Missouri,

[90]

that Truman got to know him very well in Washington. Duncan is now a Federal judge in Missouri.

FUCHS: Did you know him?

MCKIM: Yes, I know him.

FUCHS: Did you favor his appointment as a judge?

MCKIM: I thought so, yes.

FUCHS: Did you have any contacts with the Truman Committee in a business way?

MCKIM: In a business way, no.

FUCHS: Any of your friends in business talk to you about it?

MCKIM: No, none at all. The only contacts I had with the Truman Committee, out in Los Angeles one time at the Biltmore Hotel, Senator Harley Kilgore, who was a member of that committee, was out there and I met him. He had a fellow, Colonel Art Wilson, with him, I think, who was doing some work for the committee; and then Charles Patrick Clark, who was an attorney with the

[91]

committee, was there.

FUCHS: You met him there?

MCKIM: Yes. And then another time, Truman called me and asked me to take care of a few of them who were coming into Omaha. Harley Kilgore was one of them and Senator Ferguson of Michigan was another and Major General Lowe was also with them in the party. They were checking on something, I think, at the Martin Bomber Plant or something of that sort. But Truman called me and asked me to look after them and see that they were properly taken care of, which I did.

FUCHS: Did you know Bill Boyle?

MCKIM: Yes, I knew Bill very well.

FUCHS: Do you know how he happened to become associated with Mr. Truman in Washington?

MCKIM: Well, Bill was, I think, police commissioner in Kansas City at one time or on the police board. He was one of twins; he had a brother, Russell Boyle, I knew very well. Russell stayed in the army and became a

[92]

colonel. I don't know whether he's alive yet or not. Bill, oh, I think, Bill was active in Democratic politics there and I think that when Harry Vaughan was called back in the service (he had been Truman 's secretary), I think Bill Boyle was given the job then, as secretary to Mr. Truman. This Colonel Art Wilson, that I mentioned who had done some work with the Truman Committee , was over in Australia on MacArthur's staff and he called for Harry Vaughan to come over there. Vaughan was a lieutenant colonel then. Truman called me from Washington one time and said that he and Vaughan was going to be on the Union Pacific train going through Omaha and why didn't I get on and go to San Francisco with them? I did; I met the train at two o'clock in the morning and got on and we went to San Francisco and put up at the St. Francis Hotel. Then we got a car the next morning and took Vaughan over to Fort Mason to see him on board the ship. And we both looked at each other and Truman said to me, "You know we both ought to be going with him."

And I said, "I know it; I think we ought to."

And we went back to the hotel. We were going on to Los Angeles and we figured that we'd better find

[93]

a way to fly down there, so, I called up the Presidio where Lieutenant General John DeWitt was the general commanding officer and arranged for Truman to come out for a visit. The General sent a car. We went out and I was supposed to judiciously bring the subject up of how we were going to get to Los Angeles. The General fell right in with it -- "Why, take my plane." And that was just what we wanted.

FUCHS: Were you a friend of the General's?

MCKIM: No, no, I never met him, just that once. So, the next morning, we went out to Hamilton Field and we were flown down to L.A., courtesy of the General. It was a funny thing going down there. Right from Hamilton Field there was a fog over San Francisco at the time. So we just circled and circled right over the field up to about eight to ten thousand feet and then headed out to sea. The fog stopped almost at the water's edge. We flew down close to the water. Truman and I got in a two-handed poker game and I won a little money because I caught him looking out the window a lot.

FUCHS: Were you still holding a commission in the Reserves

[94]

at that time?

MCKIM: No, my commission expired in 1938.

FUCHS: Expired? You could have renewed it?

MCKIM: I didn't renew it.

FUCHS: You would have had to continue a certain amount of summer training?

MCKIM: Yes.

FUCHS: Do you happen to know why Boyle went to the Democratic National Committee in '44?

MCKIM: No, I don't. I know that after that he was National Chairman.

FUCHS: Do you know anything of Vic Messall's association with Senator Truman after he left?

MCKIM: No, I don't.

FUCHS: What are your first recollections of Mr. Truman being proposed as a vice-presidential candidate, and did you favor it?

[95]

MCKIM: That's going to be too long a story; I don't want to continue today. We can start there tomorrow.