Tom L. Evans Oral History Interview, December 19, 1963

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened August, 1966
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

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FUCHS: In 1952, there was some talk of drafting the President when he left the White House to run again for the Senate. Do you recall anything about that and did he ever mention it to you?

EVANS: Oh yes, a number of people mentioned it. My guess is that half of his friends were for it and half of them were bitterly opposed to it. I happened to be the one that was bitterly opposed to it. I think, actually--unless it's purely a guess on my part--I think, actually, President Truman would have liked very much to have been returned to the Senate of the United States, because that's where he enjoyed himself, and enjoyed the work more than anything that he had ever done. It is my personal opinion that Mrs. Truman was opposed to it and that is probably why he didn't, but I simply was opposed to it

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because you don't go down in the political ladder and he had reached the peak, so why go down. He had earned a rest. In my opinion, he wanted very much to go back.

FUCHS: Do you talk to him about it?

EVANS: Oh, yes, quite often when we were having lunch, and as you well know, we had lunch almost every day together, and we'd talk about it. But he never made definite statements to me that he did want to go back, but we'd talk about it, but more or less, around in circles without coming right out.

FUCHS: In 1954, Mr. Truman went to Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri, to speak. I believe it was a John Finley Green lecture that he was invited to give there, Do you recall that journey? I believe you went with him.

EVANS: Yes, I went with him and his old friend, Harry Jobes, went with him, and Judge Caskie Collett.

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It seems to me that Eddie Jacobson was with us, but 1 couldn't be sure. Anyway, I went with him. I know the President stayed at the banker's house down there, and we stayed at somebody else's house--we, Harry Jobes and I, I remember.

FUCHS: Who was the banker?

EVANS: He was on our board, too, of the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc. It was Tom Van Sant, the banker. Incidentally, I don't think this has any place in history about Tom Van Sant, but it was a peculiar story. We would hold the annual meeting of the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc., here in my office at 125 East 31st Street each year. And Dave Lloyd would prepare the notices and sent them out to all the trustees, which is in excess of a hundred, with a form of proxy to sign. Dave would always write a letter and say it was just a formality and nothing particular at all was coming up except the election of trustees and the same officers, and it's not necessary for you to

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show up, but we'd appreciate you signing proxy. We always had those meetings on a Saturday. I never come to the office on Saturday. This particular Saturday, the telephone operator at the office called me at home and said, "Mr. Evans, you're supposed to be having a meeting, is that right?"

I said, "Yes, there's supposed to be a meeting, but there isn't anybody supposed to be there. Why?"

And she said, "Mr. Van Sant from Fulton is here for the meeting?"

I said, "Oh, my, let me talk to him."

So, he got on the phone and I said, "Well, Tom, I just didn't come down because I didn't think anybody would be there; it's a formality."

And he said, "That's all right, don’t worry about it. I just wanted to get away and come up to the city and see the sights and this was a good excuse."

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FUCHS: How did they get acquainted, do you know?

EVANS: No, I don't. I think many, many years.

FUCHS: Anything else in connection with the trip to Westminster?

EVANS: I don't think anything particular that I can think of.

FUCHS: In 1956, the Democratic National Convention was in Chicago. Did you take a part?

EVANS: Yes, Mrs. Evans and I went up on the train with President and Mrs. Truman and had rooms adjoining with them at the Blackstone Hotel. What particularly did you want to know about that?

FUCHS: Well., what about Mr, Truman's conversations might have been in regard to his support of the candidates and did you see eye to eye with him; were you in support of Harriman or did you think he should of stuck with Stevenson?

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EVANS: I always see eye to eye with President Truman regardless of what it is, unless he gives me permission like he did in the Bolling situation, to be opposed to him. To be perfectly honest, I didn't have my heart in being opposed to Stevenson as the President was, and I would say, "Why be opposed to Mr. Stevenson?"

And he said, "Because four years ago when I was in the White House, I had him in and he agreed that he would be delighted to have the nomination. I considered that it was all closed and then he adopted the attitude of 'hard to get"'--this is Mr. Truman's statement--"and I just didn't like that kind of attitude" (Mr. Truman speaking), "and he had has chance and I just felt that Mr. Harriman was better qualified and I promised him my support." I think Mr. Harriman, whom I know very well and he's a wonderful fellow, at that convention he didn't make too much of an impression on the delegates that were there. But that was quite a hectic convention.

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FUCHS: You say, Mr. Truman, when he first had Stevenson in did get Stevenson's acquiescence and then he later backtracked?

EVANS: Or acted hard--he didn't know whether he wanted it or not and he wanted to be more or less drafted, was, I believe, the way Mr. Truman put it. And he just didn't like that.

FUCHS: What about Senator [Estes] Kefauver? Did you favor him as a candidate?

EVANS: No, I personally never favored him, because of Mr. Truman, mainly. I know Senator Kefauver broke his word with Mr. Truman on a Congressional hearing that was being held throughout the country, headed by Kefauver. He was coming to Kansas City and he promised Mr. Truman that he wasn't going to do anything, and he liked the publicity (I'm speaking about Kefauver) so well that he came to Kansas City and got into every phase in the world, anything to get publicity. In other words, just absolutely broke his word with President Truman.

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So after that, why, I personally never had any use for him and neither did President Truman; I know that.

FUCHS: What was the basis of this? Did Mr. Truman just feel that he shouldn't "stir up the animals," so to speak, in Kansas City at that particular time?

EVANS: No, that wasn't the idea of it. The idea being that Kefauver wanted to come in and investigate things that there was no rhyme or reason for at all, mainly just to create publicity, as he had done in other cities. And Mr. Truman said, "There's no reason, going out to Kansas City, which adjoins my home town of Independence, and creating all that furor."

And he said, "I don't intend to, and I wont, and I assure you that it won't happen," and then he came out and did just exactly that, by investigating and asking questions about things that,

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in my opinion, there was never anything to, and far from what he was supposed to be doing. And he would bring in names of many of the President's close friends who were not involved in any manner, shape or form, but only to create publicity, in my opinion.

FUCHS: There is a reference in your papers in 1956 to a "Potsdam watch," which you had and Mr. Talge was supposed to get engraved for you. Can you tell me what that was?

EVANS: Yes, when President Truman was at the Potsdam Conference, they gave him a watch, as many people did throughout the world. And after he came out of the White House? I don’t know the year--do you say ‘56--I was thinking it was earlier than that, but, anyway, I went with him down to his vault, to his safe deposit box for some reason, I've forgotten what. I think it was probably to get a paper for his lawyer or something; and he

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said, "I want you to go because I've got a lot of watches down there and they're not doing anybody any good and I'm giving them away. I've given my nephews--each one of my nephews"--it seems to me that he had about fifteen or sixteen--"and some of my friends, and I want you to have one."

And I went down and, Jim, I swear there were still twenty-five or thirty watches in that save deposit box, and he said, "You pick out the one you want."

And I said, "I'll take any one you want to give me."

And he said, "Well, they’ve all got a little history," and he picked one up and he said, "This one was given me" (I've forgotten by whom) "at the Potsdam Conference." And he proceeded to tell me all about it. It did practically everything except tell the time. It gave the moon automatically, the day of the week, the day of the month, incidentally,

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in a foreign language, and as I say, almost everything, except tell time. Of course, it did tell time, but it was hard to see. And then it was a stop watch and there was a second hand and a little small hand called a five-second hand. Oh, there was more gadgets on it and one time we were having--after I'd gotten this watch--I never actually wore it except maybe when my regular watch happened to be in the shop.

FUCHS: Was it a wristwatch?

EVANS: Oh yes, but real big, thick--too thick for comfort because of all these gadgets on it. It had an alarm--oh, just various and sundry things, a wonderful watch.

FUCHS: Was it a gold watch?

EVANS: Yes. Anyway, I was to a lunch where Henry Talge was, and I happened to have this watch on and I was showing it around because of the Latin terms. It gave the day of the week and the month of the

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year on it, and they were putting it in English, some of them there, and anyway, I remember Henry Talge said, "Well, it's all right, you can tell people where you got it, but you'd never made anybody believe it. You ought to have it engraved and have the Boss's signature."

And I said, "How can I get his signature?"

And so we got a piece of paper--I've forgotten what it said--but Mr. Truman wrote in his own handwriting: "This watch given to me at Potsdam Conference on such-and-such a date and I'm giving it to my friend, Tom Evans," and signed his name. And Talge had that reduced down and put on the watch. So, I have the watch and, of course, with that engraved on the back. You've never seen it?

FUCHS: No.

EVANS: I'm sorry I haven't got it here, but a year ago this month, Mrs. Evans and I picked our

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granddaughter and her husband up in Dallas and we spent Christmas in Monterrey, Mexico and New Years in Guadalajara, Mexico. And I took this watch along for precaution in case something would happen to my watch, so I let him use it. And he got to showing it around in Mexico, because he was wearing it all the time, and he would tell them about--to those people who could understand English, because he couldn't speak Spanish--about the origination of the watch and how he happened to have it, and they would invariably look peculiar until he would take it off and show them. So, we had quite a lot of fun with that watch, but it is quite a keepsake.

FUCHS: There was an Eddie Jacobson Memorial Dinner in 1958 at which Dean Acheson was the speaker, at the Muehlebach Hotel. Do you recall that?

EVANS: Yes, I just recall the dinner, but I do not recall any of the details. I remember Dean Acheson

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being here and I think he was here a couple of days and, as I recall, the Trumans had a dinner party for Dean Acheson prior to that, I think the night before, and Mrs. Evans I were there. I just do remember it. I had nothing to do with the details of it. I think that Henry Talge and Hy Vile and those people were the ones that arranged that dinner.

FUCHS: In 1959, Mr. Truman wrote to you that "as far as an invitation to Robert Kennedy was concerned," he was in a rather embarrassing position and would talk to you about it. This was in April 1959. Do you recall anything in connection with that?

EVANS: Well, do I take it that this is a memo that you saw in my files?

FUCHS: Yes, but...it wasn't clear. Either you wanted him to extend it or it had been extended and were asking him to endorse it, but Mr. Truman...

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EVANS: Well, I’m inclined to think, Jim, this is what that was. I have been most active in the Kansas City Crime Commission for a good many years. The Crime Commission in Kansas City was formed from personnel of various grand juries that had investigated the crime here in Jackson County, Missouri, and I had served, actually, on seven grand juries and was foreman of five of them. I was one of the organizers of the Crime Commission and had served as treasurer for too many years, 12, I think. I still am. And I think what this reference is, that the then president of the Kansas City Crime Commission, who was Ted Dodds (he has now passed on), wanted to have an outstanding speaker at the annual, meeting of the Kansas City Crime Commission where all contributors and members were invited. And he wanted Robert Kennedy because of his activities on investigating national crime syndicates and asked me if I could be of help, and I said the only way I could be of help would

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be to get Mr. Truman, and I'm sure that is what it was. I talked to Mr. Truman about it and he said it would be a little embarrassing for him to try to use any influence on him. He would rather not do it. He did not explain why it would be embarrassing and I just dropped it and we didn't get him, and I don't know why it was embarrassing. Maybe--well, I have no idea, really.

FUCHS: I see. In June, 1959, which was a year before the election, you wrote a friend that you thought (Stuart] Symington might be the next president of the United States. Did you have something to base that on or why did you make that statement?

EVANS: Well, there was a great deal of work being done out here on Symington in 1959 and early 1960, and, in fact, Mr. Truman was for him and was advising him, and Mr. Symington was here a great deal of the time and, as you well know, he was quite a candidate. He didn't show much strength, but he was a good candidate; and incidentally, I'm sure

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you know this, Charlie Curry, the present presiding judge of our Jackson County Court, and candidate up until today, anyway, for governor--you know, they're hearing on whether he's qualified, because of his residence, to run--he was campaign manager for Symington, and...

FUCHS: In the state or...

EVANS: No, nationally. He was chairman and they had received a substantial amount of money in contributions for Symington's campaign for President. That's what I based it on.

FUCHS: You were supporting Symington?

EVANS: Oh, yes.

FUCHS: What were Mr. Truman's true feelings, do you think, about Symington?

EVANS: Well, I think he was very strong for him, and actually--we're talking about '59--felt that he

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probably had a better chance than anybody for it, but that was before the Kennedy clan got in, so to speak, and got organized; and, as you well know, and everybody else, they had a great organization by the time they got to the convention in 1960. Mr. Symington didn't have a chance and Lyndon Johnson, who was a candidate, didn't have a chance, as you well know. They had everything worked out that was a great machine--the Kennedy machine.

FUCHS: Do you think Mr. Truman was as vigorous in his support of Symington in the election year of 1960 as you had anticipated he would have been?

EVANS: Up to the convention, you mean?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: Yes, sure, And if you’ll recall, which I’m sorry, but it happened, Mr. Truman did not think as you well know that Mr. Kennedy was ready. That

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speech was made, really, in hopes that it would help Mr. Symington, but apparently Mr. Kennedy was ready.

FUCHS: Did you, at the time, think Mr. Truman was well-advised to call that press conference and come out with that statement in opposition to a potential nominee of the party?

EVANS: Well, actually, this was the situation. I had been going to conventions with Mr. Truman or for Mr. Truman, and when I say "for," that's when he was in the White House, for many, many years, and we had agreed that we would be together at the convention in Los Angeles in 1980, and he, in fact, said he wanted me to be, I decided to leave early and drive, and go quite a roundabout way, having never been to Yellowstone, and go through Yellowstone and come down to California. And so I left, oh, a month before the convention, because I wanted a vacation, the wife and I. We were in

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Yellowstone Park, or right at the edge of it, way back in the mountains, a week before I was due to be at Los Angeles where we had reservations with the Trumans, at the Biltmore, I believe, when I received a call from him, stating that, "Well, you know now that I'm not going to the convention."

And I said, "No, I don't know. Why?"

He said, "Haven't you read the paper"

I said, "No, I'm where they don't have papers."

"Don't you listen to the radio?"

"No, I don't know anything about what's going on; what's happened."

And he said, "Oh, well, I had a press conference today. I'm not going; I made a statement."

I remember I drove--I've forgotten where I was--but I remember I drove eight or ten miles in to get some papers and get on the radio to find out what had gone on. And, frankly, if I had been here, I might have tried to talk him out of it, although I said, I never succeeded in talking the man--never tried very often to talk him out

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of anything, but if I had had my "druthers," I would have rather he would not have made that statement. The same as I would have rather he would not have made the statement regarding Stevenson in Chicago.

Getting back to Chicago, Mrs. Truman, for the only time in my life, in Chicago, was quite upset about the attitude that Mr. Truman was taking regarding Stevenson; and the press conference that he held in the Blackstone Hotel when he openly came out against Mr. Stevenson, upset Mrs. Truman terribly, and for the only time in my life, I saw her upset, even in tears, pleading with me, "Tom, can't you do something to stop Harry, he's making a fool of himself." Well, I say you don’t change the man very often.

So, getting back to the 1960 press conference, I had been gone for, I guess, about three weeks, and was not, as I say, not aware of it. And that's the one convention that I did not get to, and of course, neither did Mr. Truman, as you know.

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FUCHS: You decided not to go, then.

EVANS: No, he decided not to go.

FUCHS: I mean, then you decided.

EVANS: No, he told me not to go. I didn't decide--he told me not to go under any circumstance. He didn't even want me there, so we didn't go any further. We came on back home.

FUCHS: Who do you think advised him, if he did have advice, and helped him write the statement?

EVANS: Well, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm under the impression that a couple of gentlemen, who know nothing about politics, advised him both in Chicago and there, and one of them is now passed on. Both of them were friends of mine, but I refer to Bill Hillman and Dave Noyes. They were assisting him in writing his Memoirs and spending a great deal of time at the Library, and I think they both got the idea that they were past masters when it comes to this delicate game of

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politics, and spending so much time I think they had some influence. It was very noticeable to me for the first time at the convention in Chicago in '56; and, frankly, I paid little attention to it here that long before the convention in Los Angeles, but then putting, the old saying, "two and two together," I am sure that they had a great deal of influence on his attitude and his statement regarding Mr. Kennedy, the fact that he was not yet ready. And, as I say, I am sure that neither one of those men know very much about politics. What they do know, learned from him and in assisting him and in writing his Memoirs, which is kind of a poor way to learn politics, in my opinion.

FUCHS: Do you think that he should have gone to the convention and not made such a statement, as you said, and tried to fight to the best of his ability for Symington at the convention?

EVANS: Yes, that would have been, in my opinion, the

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normal thing to have done. And most people who go to Democratic conventions (they are the ones, of course, I'm only familiar with)--you may go in with some ideas, but when you are there and absolutely see that there is no hope for what you have in mind, then you sort of start to begin to commence to mend your fences; but Mr. Truman, of course, never was that way. Not in the convention in '48, at which, of course, there was a lot of people didn't want him, as we have covered--and a lot of people were fooled, as you well know. But in the '52 and the'56 conventions, both times, you know he took the opposite attitude. However, he was tremendously, of course, impressed--let me go back first and say: when Mr. Kennedy was nominated and Mr, Kennedy asked Lyndon Johnson to take the second place on the ticket, I'm sure that Lyndon Johnson called Mr. Truman and Mr. Truman just hit the ceiling and said, "No," he should not do it. "I can switch over; I would have helped you for the Presidency if

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Stuart Symington didn't look like he could…but never go down and take the second place on the ticket." At least, Mr. Truman told me that, that he had advised him not to, and then, as we all know, Mr. Johnson did take second place. Then Mr. Johnson came to Kansas City, it seems to me, direct from the convention, and I met him and took him out to the Library, Mr. Truman and the then Senator Johnson spent quite a long time together; I was not present; no one else was. And during that campaign, Vice President Johnson was here on numerous occasions; it seems to me at least eight or ten times during that campaign, And, being the master politician that he is, I'm referring to Lyndon Johnson, I think he was convincing Mr. Truman, I know he was convincing him, that he wanted his advice, but Mr. Johnson wanted to heal the breach, so to speak, between himself and President Kennedy. And I think Lyndon Johnson did a beautiful job, I recall a dinner party that the Trumans gave at the Kansas City

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Club on one of his visits. The guest of honor was Lyndon Johnson and Lady Bird, as Mr. Johnson called her, and Senator Ed Long and Mrs. Long. I've forgotten who else was there--it was just a small dinner party--maybe 12, 14, 16, and I think that was the eighth trip that Mr. Johnson had been here to see Mr. Truman between the convention, and if I remember right, that dinner party was in October of 1960 before the election in November. It might have been September, but thirty to sixty days before. And I remember at that particular dinner party, Mr. Truman said, "Well, you sold me that Jack Kennedy would make a wonderful President, and as you know, I've been out working my head off for him, and I think he's definitely going to win." Incidentally, I said October and I think that dinner party was in August, because it was in October that I became so terribly ill with a hemorrhaged ulcer and almost died. That was on September 17, and I now know August 29, 1960.

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FUCHS: When you met Lyndon Johnson after the convention, was that on behalf of Mr. Truman or in some official capacity that you had here in the political organization?

EVANS: I think Mr. Truman asked me to meet him and bring him out to the Library, that it would be a nice thing. He wanted to see him out there, I'm sure it was at Mr. Truman's suggestion that I met him.

FUCHS: You say that Bill Hillman and David Noyes were much in evidence in Chicago. Can you elaborate a little bit on that, how it came to your attention that they seemed to be exerting influence?

EVANS: They were in evidence. They were constantly in the Truman suite, where we had, so to speak, a working office. And before the press conference that was called, where Mr. Truman tried to read Mr. Stevenson out of the party, Dave Noyes and Bill Hillman spent at least all morning, that

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particular morning, and several hours the day before, writing up what he was to say, and which would take maybe a fifteen minute conference with Mr. Truman, and then they'd spend an hour and a half trying to get it together. I know they gave it to him, and I also remember that he read it over and looked at it and took it, but I think he looked at it only twice, but sort of more or less followed the theme, and I think they were--that's what I mean by constant in attendance in the suite.

FUCHS: There was a letter drafted in 1960 by Dave Lloyd and Charles Murphy, which was to be sent over Mr. Truman's name to the congressman, the senators, and the congressional candidates, in which he said, "I simply do not believe that the United States can stand four years of Richard Nixon in the White House." Was this letter sent and do you know whose idea that was to send that to the congressmen?

EVANS: I don't believe I know whose idea it was, frankly,

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Jim, but I well. remember the letter; I well remember that Mr. Truman changed some of the wording of it to make it his own--he changed quite a bit of it, and actually sent it out to, as I remember, every Democratic congressman and senator and political leaders throughout the country. I also remember that that particular letter, there was some question of whether or not it should use his franked envelope and he did not want to use it. He insisted on buying postage for it. I remember getting Dave Lloyd to talk to Charlie Murphy, and I think that Charlie Murphy called Mr. Truman on the phone and told him that he could use that frank for anything he wanted; it was given to him. He could use it anyway he wanted and it would be ridiculous to try to pay postage. It was pretty hard to convince him, but they did convince him to go ahead and use the franked envelope.

FUCHS: Do you recall any specific responses from that

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mailing?

EVANS: No, because I, of course, had nothing to do with it other than the fact that we were all more or less working together.

FUCHS: I'd like to have you relate the story of the Matt Connelly and Caudle-Sachs-Schwimmer case, if you can, perhaps starting with your earliest contacts with Schwimmer in relation to Internal Revenue, and so forth.

EVANS: Well, it's, as you have seen, I know, in the files (because I kept all the clippings of the papers about it); it's a long drawn out affair and a long, long story. However, I will try to hit the highlights and not detail too much of it because I don't know how much importance might be attached to it in future years; but anyway, there was the situation,

Originally, when I went into business back in 1920, there was a law firm of Maloney, Schwimmer,

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and Bredihoff. I did not know Schwimmer or Bredihoff, but Maloney I had known in the old Kansas City Athletic Club, and when I bought my first drugstore, I had to have a lawyer close it and I just called on Maloney, who was probably the only friend I had in those days who was a lawyer. And, as a result he handled all my legal work. Oh, a dozen or more years later, he was made a coal commissioner--I think I recited that time that I visited Mr. Pendergast in New York, when he wanted a coal commissioner, with Jim Farley present--I'm sure we recorded that--and we picked Maloney. I'm sure you have that down. Anyway, Maloney took the job as coal commissioner in Washington, an appointment by the President, under the Guffey Coal Act. And Mr. Schwimmer took over handling the legal work for myself and my company, and in later years I got into the broadcasting business, and Schwimmer handled that and did a beautiful job. And he was a capable, fine,

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outstanding attorney. In the radio business, that was before the advent of television, you actually had to have in Washington a radio attorney, one who specialized in radio only, and we had one. But when I went into the radio business in 1933 and '34, as I related, I'm sure, we bought a little hundred watt radio station out here at 39th and Main; and we wanted to increase it from a hundred watts to a thousand watts, which we did, and a thousand watts to five thousand watts, five thousand to fifty thousand, and each one of those increases--I don't believe I’m exaggerating--would require at least a dozen trips to Washington for conferences and hearings, which is just the same as going to court. And Mr. Schwimmer would accompany me on most of these, because they were to work with my radio lawyer in Washington and he handled it from a legal standpoint in Missouri. So all in all, I expect Schwimmer made at least seventy-five trips with me to Washington, during the time Mr. Truman was

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senator, and I would see Mr, Truman, and he met him through me and we'd have Mr. Truman to lunch and often Harry Schwimmer would be with me, and dinner. He met Bennett Clark, Joe Shannon, who was a congressman, Jasper Bell--all of them my friends from here, and he became well-acquainted with them because they were all friends of mine. And being my own attorney, was closely connected with me, and when Mr. Truman called me from Chicago in '44 and asked me to come up, Mr. Schwimmer did not go up with me, but he was in Chicago and he was there, I know, when he was nominated. Then, as he became President, we were, incidentally, getting into the television business, and that required, it seems to me, a trip every other week to Washington. And Schwimmer was constantly with me, and he became friendly with Matt Connelly, Charlie Ross, Harry Vaughan, Dave Lloyd, all of the people on the staff, because I was friendly with them. I would often have the

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boys come over for lunch and Schwimmer would be there and have lunch with me, he just got acquainted. He got so he would go over to the White House with me, and then he became very friendly with all of them and when the President would come out here, as I've told you, when his mother was so ill, I would look after the staff because they were not familiar with who locally should see the President of the United States; I spent a lot of time. Schwimmer used to come in, and he came so often he was readily admitted by the Secret Service. He and Connelly became great friends. Schwimmer would have some legal work in Washington and I know that he saw Matt Connelly from time to time; it was only natural. I thought nothing about it, and this went on for a number of years. I remember one time, and the only time, that Harry said he had had a matter in the Department of Justice. He didn't tell me what the matter was--because he had a number of clients--and that he was going to invite one of the members of the

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Justice Department over to the hotel for lunch and hoped that I could be there. We were both there on business. I came in for lunch at the hotel and they were having it up in the room, and it was Lamar Caudle. That is the first, and I think only time I ever met him. I may have met him, I'm not sure, one other time after that, but that was the first time I met him.

FUCHS: What year was that?

EVANS: Oh, I don't know the date. I just have no way of marking the date in my mind. He was a lawyer in I.R.S. and quite a talker and we had a cocktail and lunch and just discussed things in general. He knew of my friendship with Mr. Truman over many years; we talked about politics in Kansas City in the olden days and so forth, and he was just a likeable sort of a fellow, that's all. Getting back to the Schwimmer and the Connelly thing, they were often together. I know that Schwimmer would go back on some work for me,

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I was in with a group that was in the coal business, had been for many years. William Deramus, Sr., of the Kansas City Southern Railroad, Joe Porter, whose father was president of the Kansas City Power and Light Company, and another gentleman by the name of Johnson, who is now dead, and myself, had coal leases down in Oklahoma. We had gone into it in 1936, and Schwimmer handled some of that legal work for us. I remember sending him to see friends of mine and asking in the early days, Senator Truman, to make an appointment for Schwimmer over at the Interior Department. I remember asking Bennett Clark, who was senator, to make an appointment for Schwimmer with somebody in the Interior Department on these coal things So, anyway, Schwimmer and Connelly became close friends because Matt and I were intimate friends. I remember one time--oh, I don't know when it was, but I presume it must have been in 1950, '51, maybe ‘49--I don't know--but anyway,

[703]

Mr. Truman was President, and we were in the Statler Hotel in Washington when Matt Connelly said to me, "Tom, what about this oil stock that Schwimmer wants me to buy?"

And I said, "Well, Matt, I don't know anything about it. What is it?"

He said, "He's got a client that's in the oil business, and that he can buy me an oil royalty for $750" (I think was the figure--Matt talking). He said to me "I don't know anything about oil stock; I haven't got $750 to invest, and I don't know why Schwimmer would want me to buy it."

I said, "Well, Schwimmer hasn't said anything to me about it, Matt. As soon as I get back, I'll talk to him and I'll let you know."

And when I came back, I asked Schwimmer what about it, and Schwimmer said, "Well, as you know, I represent so-and-so" (I've forgotten his name, who had extensive holding out in the oil field), "and I can buy this oil royalty for

[704]

Matt for $750."

And I said, "Well."

And he said, "I know he can't lose any money and Matt's been so terribly nice to me on a lot of things and I appreciate it, I just want to do something for him. And I believe that he'll be able to sell it and double his money on it and it wouldn't take too long a time."

And I said, "Well, I didn't know anything about it and Matt asked me and Matt said that he didn't have the $750."

And he said, "Well, I'd like to have him have it."

And I said, "You know, Matt doesn't have any money. He's only on a salary and he's never had a chance to make any money."

And he said, "Well, why don’t you loan him the money?"

And I said, "Well, I'll talk to Matt and if he wants to borrow the money, it will be all right."

[705]

So, the next time I was in Washington I told Matt that I had talked to Schwimmer and that he (Schwimmer) had told me that there was no chance in the world of him losing any money and that he ought to make some money on it.

He said, "Well, I don't have any money to invest."

I said, "Well, I'll loan you the money and when, as, and if you sell it, you can pay me back." And I gave Connelly a check, payable to himself, I think the amount was $750. It's been a long time since I've gone into it, but I'm almost sure that's what it was. And Connelly in turn, I guess, sent his own check to Schwimmer for his oil royalty, and that's all I ever knew about it for, it seems to me, maybe a year or two. I know Mr. Schwimmer saw Connelly--he always saw him when he was with me because when I was there, Matt and I were together a great deal of the time. I knew nothing more, heard nothing more about the oil royalty until--oh, a number of years later, long

[706]

after Mr. Truman was out of the White House--I got a subpoena to appear before a grand jury in St. Louis. I, needless to say, answered the subpoena, and they started questioning me about "What did I know about an oil royalty?" Oh, incidentally, when I walked into the grand jury waiting room, here was Harry Schwimmer and his wife, Matt Connelly, Caudle and his wife, Robert Vaughan, a lawyer, and a number of people from Kansas City that I knew. I never shall forget. I walked in and I said, "Well, it looks like old home week. What's going on?"

FUCHS: Was this prior to publicity in the newspaper?

EVANS: First time I walked into the grand jury. The very first time.

FUCHS: You didn't know what was coming?

EVANS: No. I was just subpoenaed to appear before this grand jury. Oh, yes, I did know something was coming, because the subpoena specified that I

[707]

should bring all files in connection with Harry I. Schwimmer and all files in connection with Matthew Connelly, And I received this subpoena, by the way, at eight o'clock at night at my home at 91st and State Line and I was to be at the grand jury room at nine o'clock in the morning. I lived on thirty acres and had a lot of stock, and my man was sick in the hospital and I couldn't be out of town. I called, they gave me the number of the district attorney, I guess, to call, but anyway, I couldn't get out of it. And I said, "Well, look, you're asking almost the impossible for me to be there at nine o'clock in the morning and I simply cannot bring all the files. It would just take me two or three days, I think, to get them together."

So they asked me if I had a file with personal correspondence with Connelly, and I told them I did. They told me to bring it; I don't think they asked me. And anyway, I took them and went

[708]

down and appeared and that's where I found all the group. When I got in before the grand jury, they started asking me questions about Schwimmer, Connelly; how long did I know about an oil royalty that Harry Schwimmer had given to Matt Connelly, and I told them the exact truth as I have a just told you, and the fact that I had loaned Connelly the money to pay for it. I remember the--if this is the proper term--district attorney (he was from Washington) said "Well, now we're getting some place. Mr. Evans, you're the only witness that we've had that acts like he knows anything about what he's talking about. And we're glad to have you, because everybody else doesn't know anything about it."

And, I told him, as I say, what I just related here and I remember this district attorney, the United States attorney, whatever his title was, said, "Was the money ever paid back to you?"

And I said, "Yes."

And he said, "By whom?"

[709]

And I said, "By Matt Connelly."

"By cash or by check?"

I said, "Well, I'm sure it was a check, because I think that if it had been cash, I would have remembered, because I never received any cash."

"Would you have any way of knowing?"

And I said, "Yes, I would have a way of knowing, because all of my business life, I have kept a record, my secretary has kept it, ever since I've been in business, of every deposit that I make into my personal account, a detail on a piece of paper of what that money represents, whether it has a dividend or rent, or money I might have received on an insurance claim or regardless of what it was, I’d keep a record."

And he said, "I’m wondering if you would go back to your office and look up that record and let me know the date of your check that you gave to Mr. Connelly, and would you give us a photostatic copy of it, or your check, and also

[710]

the date that it was paid back, and what kind of a check it was, I mean, whether it was check or cash, and if it was a personal, check or a cashier's check."

And he asked me if it would say, and I said, "Yes, I'm sure my secretary would write 'Matt Connelly's check,' or 'cashier's check,' or 'traveler's check' or anything. That would be her custom."

So, I came back to Kansas City--got along fine with the grand jury--and came to my office and looked up the slip for that particular year that my secretary had kept, each day, each time I made a deposit throughout the year. And my policy was, Jim, on the last day of each year, she would hand me those slips and I would put them in my income tax book, that would show receipts and my checks would show disbursements, my check stubs. So, I looked it up and much to my amazement, and for the first time, I learned that I had told the grand jury something

[711]

that was not true, because I told them that Matt Connelly had repaid the loan. And there right square on the sheets prepared by my secretary--and each secretary that I'd ever had, had always done this--was this $750 Harry I. Schwimmer check "in payment of loan to Matt Connelly." In other words, Matt Connelly didn't pay it back; Harry Schwimmer did. I then recalled very vividly--but up until then it had been a complete blank--I then recalled, that when I came back, I told Schwimmer that I had loaned Matt Connelly $750 to purchase this so-called oil royalty, and I then remembered for the first time, that Harry Schwimmer said, "Look, I don't want you out any money; I'll send you my check for $750, And when Connelly pays you back you can then give me the $750 back."

And I said, "All right."

And there it was. My secretary had made $750 in a deposit check of "Harry I. Schwimmer

[712]

in payment of $750 loan to Matt Connelly," just as plain as day. So, I had been on too many grand juries not to know that you can't tell the jury one thing today and go back and change it tomorrow without creating some trouble, So, I called an old friend of mine who was former attorney general of the State of Missouri (and I certainly didn't want to talk to Schwimmer about it, he was down in St. Louis--I had no lawyer). I called this former attorney general of the State of Missouri, as we all knew him affectionately, General John T. Barker, who now, by the way, is deceased, and ask him if he'd come out to my office and told him what my testimony to the grand jury was, and here it was, He said, "Well,, Tom, there will be no trouble at all. You just call down there--I'll call--we'll get the district attorney" (if that's the right title) "and tell him that you came back and checked your records and you want to come down and correct your testimony. That's often done;

[713]

it’s perfectly all right."

So, I said, "All right, I just wanted to make sure."

I called him and made the appointment for the next day. I took my cancelled check that I had given Schwimmer; I took this record that my secretary had made, and down I went and met him and he was just as kind as he could be to me, and I went in and told the grand jury that I had made a mistake. I had told them that Connelly had paid me back and I referred to my records and I found that Schwimmer had paid me back. And I thought I was about ready to come back to Kansas City and that's all I knew about it, when to and behold, they just unloaded on me something awful. They accused me of going back to Kansas City and getting a dozen girls and working all night in framing all these--oh, they asked me to bring these records for five years prior prepared by my secretary and five years after, if I had them, and I said, "Yes."

[714]

So I took them down with the check. And they accused me of working all night and faking these records and I said, "Well, why would I do that?"

"Well, that's what we want you to tell us."

And, oh, they were unmerciful. And I would say to them, "I don't know why you would think I would do such a thing as that, because after all, the bank would have the records and if I were falsifying the records, why, it wouldn't tally out with the bank. These are prepared by the secretary."

I remember he said, "Who was your secretary in 1934?"

"Well, I think Jean Dora,"

"I suppose she's dead"

"No, she isn't dead; she's married and she lives in California. She worked for me for fifteen years."

[715]

I mentioned another one--"I suppose she's dead?"

"No, she's not dead; she's married and she lives--she's still alive. You can find her."

And I was in the grand jury room, I think, about eight hours and, as I say, they were unmerciful, of which none of it made any sense to me why they would accuse me of falsifying these deposit records because it wouldn't do any good. I never could understand it. Later, many, many months later, I found out what they were trying to do, but I, for the life of me, couldn't.

Then they had me down two, three, or four different times, during which time they asked me many, many, many questions, as you can well imagine. I remember that day I was the only witness before the grand jury. There was all kinds of stories floating around--stories don't

[716]

mean anything--that I was told by a man that ought to know, that they felt that I had received a half a million dollars for favors that I had gotten Mr. Truman to do while he was in the White House, and that I had split it with him--that's what they were after.

FUCHS: Had split it with Mr. Truman?

EVANS: Yes, and I shall never forget, after I came back from one of these trips to St. Louis, I saw Mr. Truman and I said, "I don't know what's going on. I heard this story, it came around to me, that they're really after--thinking that I got a half a million dollars and gave you part of it. He said, "If I find you’ve got a half a million dollars, I'm going to be awful mad, cause you didn't give me part of it and you should have."

That was his answer; but as I say, they

[717]

asked me many, many questions, Jim. Among them was; "Did I ever know of Schwimmer giving Matt Connelly anything else, other then this oil royalty."

I said, "He didn't give him the oil royalty. He sold it to him."

"Did he ever get anything, or did he ever give Mrs. Connelly anything?"

"Yes, I remember one time that he bought--it was near the Christmas season and we were in Washington and he bought a pocketbook in the Statler Hotel gift shop, had it gift wrapped and sent to Mrs. Connelly."

"Do you remember anything else?"

"Yes, I think I remember Harry Schwimmer buying a cocktail shaker for Matt Connelly and having it gift wrapped and sent to him. That was Schwimmer’s nature; he sent Mrs. Evans and I things like that for years. He was just that type of a guy."

"Did you ever know him to give Matt Connelly

[718]

a suit of clothes?"

"No. I remember that he had his tailor measure Matt Connelly for a suit of clothes, but I'm sure Matt Connelly paid for the suit of clothes."

"Did you ever know of Harry Schwimmer giving Matt Connelly an overcoat?"

"No, I think I remember that when Matt Connelly was here with the President, as we was on every trip, that Schwimmer had his tailor up, and measured Mr. Connelly for an overcoat. I don't think Mr. Schwimmer gave it to him." Questions like that.

"Well, then Mr. Connelly was indicted and Mr. Schwimmer was indicted. Mr. Schwimmer had a heart attack and could not be tried. Oh, my, that's been, I don’t know how many years ago, Jim, 1959?

FUCHS: ‘54, I believe.

EVANS: Well, he hasn’t been tried yet, and as I

[719]

understand it--I haven't seen Schwimmer or talked to Schwimmer in, oh, five years. I haven't seen, heard of him, or anything.

FUCHS: It may have been '55 that he was actually indicted.

EVANS: I haven't seen him in five years, in fact, I've only seen him once since. I was there the day that he collapsed outside the grand jury room, and I've only seen him once. Well, I say, only seen him once, I saw him there during the trial, but after he was convicted, no, he was not tried, and I didn't see him at the trial because he collapsed there. And I only saw Schwimmer once. I saw Connelly many times at his trial, that's what I meant to say.

FUCHS: Were you a witness at that trial?

EVANS: Oh, yes, but I never saw Schwimmer because he collapsed and was in the hospital, except once

[720]

and only once. Mrs. Evans and I, many years after that, were down in Hollywood, Florida, and we had gone with some friends to the dog races, and lo and behold, here was Harry Schwimmer, who apparently was half paralyzed, at the dog races. He was able to bet on the dogs and to watch them run and he sat down and visited with us, maybe five minutes. That's the only time that I've seen him.

FUCHS: Where was he living at that time?

EVANS: In one of the big, fine hotels up from Miami Beach--the next town. I understand that's where he was then and where he goes every winter, even now. And in the summer, lives in California, Los Angeles.

FUCHS: Well, didn't he show up in Puerto Rico around that time?

EVANS: No. He was in Puerto Rico before this jury thing. He had had heart trouble and he quit his practice and moved to Puerto Rico because of the

[721]

climate, and that's where he was when this thing came up. He didn't move there after; he moved there before. And when he was indicted, they set his bond terrifically high because he was living, so they said, out of the country and didn't want him to leave the country. Anyway, I've seen Schwimmer only once. Then, Connelly stood trial, and Caudle was indicted, and I, of course, was subpoenaed as a witness. I, of course, testified to everything that I had told the grand jury, including the fact that--oh, there were a number of ramifications, as I say, if I tried to go into detail on all this, we'd be here for a week.

FUCHS: We got lots of time.

EVANS: Yes, but I haven't, I've got to do my Christmas shopping.

There was a case of--I called Matt Connelly and I said, "Matt, I testified to the grand jury that you had paid me this loan, and I come back

[722]

from the grand jury and I find that you did not pay it back, that Schwimmer had paid it back, and I've got to go to the grand jury and correct it."

So, his lawyer then insisted that Connelly send me a check for $750 in payment of this loan in which I received and I in turn deposited the $750 to my account and wrote a check to Harry Schwimmer, "Repayment of money advanced on the loan," and so went before the grand jury and told them.

FUCHS: Was this before you went back to the grand jury to correct your testimony?

EVANS: No, no, this was after I went back, long after I went back, maybe a month after. No, Connelly didn't know anything about it until, I had been to the grand jury and come back and found that I had testified in error. I then called Connelly and told him. Then a month after that, his attorney decided that, well, since Connelly hadn’t

[723]

repaid the loan, he ought to. Don’t ask me why, because I don't know. That was a legal matter. Then I had $750 that I was not entitled to and my lawyer said I had better give it to Schwimmer. So I sent Schwimmer a letter and sent a copy of my letter covering that letter to the Government attorney in St. Louis. Well, I testified under oath as a witness in the trial of Mr. Connelly. Mr. Schwimmer, as I say, has never stood trial yet. And incidentally, as I understand it, each month the Government sends three doctors--now I don't know whether this is true, I've been told by some of Schwimmer's friends that this is true--that each month they send three doctors who give him a complete examination and they certify that he's unable to stand trial. If it was ‘55, why, that's been a long time. Anyway, as I say, I testified exactly as I have told you, and to make a long story short, this is what actually happened.

Mr. Connelly was on the stand; they asked

[724]

him about this loan that I had given him to buy the oil royalty, and why he didn't pay it back before, and he stated, which was the truth, that I told him that he didn't need to pay it back until he had sold it. And they asked him many questions, among which was "Did Mr. Schwimmer ever buy you a suit of clothes?"

Mr. Connelly, being under oath, said "No."

"Did Mr. Schwimmer ever buy you an overcoat?"

And he said, "No."

They asked him about a handbag, a cocktail shaker, and other things in which he said, "Yes," he thought he remembered a handbag and so forth.

They then put a witness on the stand who was the tailor who made the suit of clothes and made the overcoat, He testified that at Mr. Schwimmer's suggestion, he had measured Mr. Connelly in the Muehlebach Hotel for an overcoat and a suit of clothes and that he had made

[725]

them and Mr. Schwimmer had paid the bill, They then produced a banker who identified a check issued by Mr. Schwimmer to the tailor, whereby he had paid for the suit of clothes and had paid for the overcoat, and, therefore, Mr. Connelly had committed perjury. And actually, and honestly, knowing Matt Connelly as I did (and I knew him intimately), Matt Connelly had a thousand things on his mind for nearly eight years, looked after President Truman; he handled tens-of-thousands of dollars in paying bills wherever the President would go; he was always with him; and actually, and honestly, and this is my sincere belief, that Matt Connelly forgot all about the fact that Schwimmer bought them, But, on the face of it, it was definitely and positively that he had lied and he was convicted of accepting a bribe. And it turned out that Mr. Schwimmer had a client in St. Louis who was in the shoe business, his name I don't remember...

[726]

FUCHS: Sachs?

EVANS: Sachs, who had been convicted of an income tax fraud and, I believe, hired Schwimmer afterwards, and apparently had undoubtedly been told by someone that Schwimmer was a good man to hire because he was close to Mr. Truman. Well, he wasn't close to Mr. Truman; he was close to Mr. Truman through Tom Evans, and I never, of course, dreamed of those things. But anyway, getting back to Matt Connelly, they convicted him and I said two years--I believe it was a year--I've forgotten. But anyway, he did serve his time. I'm sure that Matt Connelly actually never gave it a thought about the time of Schwimmer buying him a suit of clothes and an overcoat. You couldn’t have bought--knowing Matt Connelly as I do--you couldn't have given Matt Connelly a hundred dollars to do something, why he just wouldn't have stood for it. He was a decent, honorable guy, devoted one hundred percent to Harry Truman. And the sad part of the whole thing is, I feel terrible about it because had it not

[727]

been for me, Matt Connelly would never have had this trouble. But due to the fact that my lawyer, I didn't realize it at the time, was using me constantly to further his own legal practice and currying favor with Matt Connelly. It's a shame, but there's one man, Matt Connelly, I can truthfully say, never did anything crooked in his life. People say, "Tom, you can't be that naive. He knew he got an overcoat and a suit of clothes from Harry Schwimmer." No, I have to say that knowing Matt as I do and the many, long hours and the many, many worries that he had with the President in his particular job, he never gave it a thought, Now that sounds strange, but I must say it, because it is the way I feel and I know it to be true.

Now, let me get one thing in, After this case was all, over--oh, I forgot to tell you--that when they accused me of having sat up all night long and had a dozen girls who faked all these records, I remember the Government attorney saying

[728]

to me, "Mr. Evans, these records were made back in..."--I don't know, 1946--"and you've got paper that was never manufactured until 1962. We have sent it to our laboratory."

And I said, "Mr. ....(I can't think of his name) "you are just as wrong as you can be, because that was made at the time. I couldn't have made it any other way or it wouldn't tie in with my bank account."

They were getting ready for trial and I'm a Government witness, subpoenaed by the Government, and they go over what my testimony is going to be, before I get on the stand, Then, this special prosecutor was very, very friendly with me, He was friendly with me because I was his witness, so I said to him--I'm sorry I can't remember his name--it took ten years off my life, I ought to remember his name. But anyway, I said to him, "There's one thing that I want to know. Why did you insist constantly before the grand jury that

[729]

I had faked all those records of my recent deposits that my secretary had made and accused me of doing all that, when, of course, as I kept repeatedly saying, that I couldn't if I had wanted to, because they would have had to tie in with the bank. I'm curious, why did you do that?" And I learned, Jim, for the first time, why, that he had spent hours with me on the stand. And he said, "Mr. Evans, now that you're my key witness in this case, I will tell you. I was in hopes that I could make you mad. If I can make people mad, I can then usually get them to tell what I want to know, and I was trying my best to get you mad. I'll have to say that you're the most even-tempered man I've ever seen," which is not true, but I had sense enough to know that that was no place to get mad.

He said, "I want to tell you," (this I probably shouldn’t put in) but he said "and I'm going to show you something," and he showed me a report. See, they had about fifteen Government

[730]

men working on my end of this whole affair. They checked my banks, my receipts and disbursements, down to everything, and one of the peculiar things was that they had Harry Schwimmer's books and his books showed, either $5,000 or $7,500, that he had received by check from me for this amount and they wanted to know what it was. I told them that there was no such check. They had my checks. They had all my records, and that I'd never paid Schwimmer or the company that amount of money. Nevertheless, they said that they'd like to have me check it out. I said, "Well, I don't need to check it out. There isn't anything. I did not give him that amount." I've forgotten now, as I say, whether it was $5,000 or $7,500. And they insisted that I do some checking. It shows you how you can forget things, so this oral history I'm giving probably isn’t very accurate because I can assure you that you can forget a lot of things. I am trying and trying and trying to

[731]

figure out where and why I could have given him anything, when lo and behold it dawned on me that I had an account in the Columbia National Bank under the name of Tom L. Evans, Trustee for Ella Mae Buchanan, which is my daughter. Ella Mae Buchanan is my daughter. And I had made an investment for her in an automobile company which had turned out very handsomely for her and I handled her affairs. I handled, not her affairs--I handled that transaction, and her husband wanted to buy a place out in the country. They lived on 68th Street, just off of Main Street, and he had never asked my advice about it, but had decided to buy this twenty acre place, and make a small down payment, I think, of a hundred dollars, and in 45 days he was to pay either $5,000 or $7,500, and he expected to sell their present house and get the cash and make that payment, and he couldn't sell his house. He would not come to me, because he had never come

[732]

to me with anything; he did go to Schwimmer and say he didn’t know what to do. So I said to Schwimmer, "Well, you tell him that you're going to borrow the money from the Columbia National Bank and loan it to him so he can go ahead and buy this place in the country, and when he sells the house, he can give you the money and you'll pay it to the Columbia National Bank." And I said, "Here's a check on his wife's account," which she wouldn't know anything about, because I didn't let her know about it.- So I gave Schwimmer this check and I've forgotten again, I say, whether it was $5,000 or $7,500, a check on account "Tom L. Evans, trustee, for Ella Mae Buchanan." So he sold the house, paid Schwimmer this money, Schwimmer gave it to me. I put it back into that trustee account, I had discontinued that trustee account about three years before this investigation and I had forgotten all about it. In fact, I only wrote ten checks on

[733]

that account. Then I put it into a family partnership and it dawned on me about that. I had no record of it. Lord, I dug down in the drawer and there was a little tiny checkbook with these eight or nine checks that I had written, including the first check to Schwimmer for the money, including the deposit that Schwimmer had paid back. So that balanced it out. They thought it was money that I was paying Schwimmer for favors. I said, "Lord, if there was any money paid, what you're investigating, he'd be paying me."

But anyway, this special prosecutor at St. Louis, I'm his witness, and he told me, he had been telling me this to make me mad. And he said "Mr. Evans, I'm going to show you something." And he handed me a report signed by the Intelligence Branch of the Internal Revenue, whereby in all their experience, they had never found as complete and thorough a record and easy to check (in the twenty year period that they had checked my account)

[734]

that everything was perfect except this one account on the Tom L. Evans trustee account which they went ahead to explain that I had opened this account temporarily while I was forming a family partnership and it was easy to see how I had overlooked it and there was no reflection whatever. So I felt real good about that. But I never felt good about Connelly. And I think that Mr. Connelly (and I wouldn't blame him), blames me for his trouble because I have only seen Matt probably twice, and then in a group, like, I think, the dedication of the building of the Library--he was here for that. I've never been alone with him since. It's just one of the tragedies, so to speak, in my life--what happened to Matt, Again, I say, he was the most loyal, devoted man that Mr. Truman ever had around him. He did have, I'm sorry to say, one horribly bad habit, He drank much too much, I actually believe that in the last two years of Mr. Truman's Administration, he was a complete

[735]

alcoholic, at least I base it upon this fact, that the first thing in the morning, he'd have to have in his office, would be a couple of drinks during the morning, a couple during the afternoon, and a dozen in the evening. So, that to me makes an alcoholic. But he was a bright, brilliant, intelligent, young fellow.

FUCHS: Wasn't there a defense fund raised for Connelly?

EVANS: Yes. That's funny, I can't think who it was, some lawyer in Washington?

FUCHS: You mean the treasurer of it?

EVANS: Yes.

FUCHS: Are you thinking of Jess Larson?

EVANS: Yes, Jess Larson. I couldn't think who it was. Yes, I couldn't think who it was. I contributed to that fund. I think I gave, because I would liked to have paid it all if I could have felt

[736]

that I could afford it, because I still felt that all of Connelly's trouble was due to me. If it hadn't been for me he never would have met Schwimmer, who took advantage of him. Yes, I contributed to it.

FUCHS: Who started that fund?

EVANS: I think Lew Barringer, who was very friendly with Connelly, was the instigator of it. I'm sure he's the one who called me and I think I sent one check for $1,000 and one check for $500, because Connelly had no money to defend himself.

FUCHS: Do you know how much they raised?

EVANS: No,

FUCHS: Back in 1949, there’s some indication in your records that Schwimmer and Oscar Chapman were good friends, and Schwimmer wrote you one time that it would be of value to see Oscar if you went East; and Schwimmer also at this time,

[737]

seemed to be thinking of perhaps getting an appointment as a Judge of the Court of Tax Appeals in Washington. Do you recall anything of these matters?

EVANS: That Schwimmer was trying to get an appointment?

FUCHS: He had indicated that he would like an appointment as a judge of the Court of Tax Appeals in Washington. He wanted some sort of job and that was a suggestion.

EVANS: Well, if so, he never talked to me about it. I think once he mentioned the fact that Connelly had suggested that maybe he would be interested in a Government appointment and I sort of laughed it off with him. It never, as far as I was concerned, was serious. The appointment with Oscar Chapman in 1949, I am sure, was in connection with this coal venture that I had been in for a good many years, that I spoke about, with Mr.

[738]

Deramus and Joe Porter. I'm sure that must have been what that was.

FUCHS: Do you know how Schwimmer became a friend of Chapman's?

EVANS: Oh yes, sure, I introduced him to him. That's the way he became a friend of everybody's in Washington, without exception. Sure.

FUCHS: In 1953, after Mr. Truman was back in Missouri, Schwimmer wanted a letter from Mr. Truman to Governor [Luis] Munoz Marin of Puerto Rico, and he wrote that he was shocked at Mr. Truman's attitude, and he mentions a misunderstanding that Matthew Connelly had had with you. This was in July of '53. Do you know anything of the background of that?

EVANS: Yes, I think that was probably the start of the Government's investigation of Connelly and Schwimmer and Caudle and anybody else they could involve.

[739]

And I think there was some publicity in the paper at that time about this client that Schwimmer had in St. Louis, this income tax case; and Schwimmer, as I remember, asked me to ask Mr. Truman to get this letter of introduction or something, and Mr. Truman said he didn't want to do it. He thought that Schwimmer would embarrass him--I mean...so, I of course, had no secrets from Schwimmer, and I told him and it hurt him and upset him. But I'm sure Mr. Truman was right about it, too. I wished I had known more about it in previous years--I don't mean to say that anything was wrong with Schwimmer except one thing, he took advantage of his friendship with me to meet people who were to influential positions in Washington.

FUCHS: What was the misunderstanding that Connelly and you had? Do you recall?

EVANS: No, I don't recall what it was. I know that we

[740]

had a misunderstanding and that Schwimmer went back there to straighten it out because I couldn't get away, and then I went back later. Somebody had given him some wrong information, but I've forgotten what the details were. It's been so long ago. I know there was a misunderstanding.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman was well acquainted with Mr. Schwimmer?

EVANS: Oh, sure, he was well acquainted with everybody that I was as he had been my personal lawyer for many years.

FUCHS: Well, I think that's about all I have except some general questions about a few things that you might know something about.

What was the Triangle Club of Kansas City back in the twenties, which according to a Gus Bowman (who I believe was a window trimmer for Mr. Truman's haberdashery shop) was a club that Mr. Truman belonged to?

[741]

EVANS: I never heard of the Triangle Club, Gus Bowman I know very well, He worked for me when I ran Crown Drug Company and was a window trimmer for Crown Drug Company, and then went into business of his own--window trimming company. Incidentally, Gus Bowman died last week and was buried, I noticed in the paper.

FUCHS: Oh, is that right. I didn't notice that.

EVANS: He was eighty some years old, but I never heard of the Triangle Club. It seems to me way back in my mind there's a faint something about Triangle, but it's awful faint. I don't remember.

FUCHS: Was this Gus Bowman the one who trimmed Mr. Truman's windows?

EVANS: I believe maybe he did, He must be, because he was in the window trimming business, probably many other people, too.

FUCHS: Did you ever hear Tom Pendergast refer to Mr.

[742]

Truman as "That man who went broke with Eddie Jacobson?"

EVANS: No, sir. I sure never did.

FUCHS: It's been said that he would so refer to Mr. Truman, implying that he didn't really know him very well--he just called him "that man who went broke with Eddie Jacobson." You never heard of that?

EVANS: No, I've heard him refer to him as "Jim's friend," many times, meaning his nephew Jim, because they were overseas together. But, knowing Mr. T. J. Pendergast as I did, why, that sounds a little like him.

FUCHS: Do you recall, anything of an announcement by Mr. Truman that he was thinking of running for Governor of Missouri in 1931?

EVANS: No, no. I didn't know that happened. In 1931?

FUCHS: 1931. I'm not certain that he announced or was

[743]

thinking of announcing.

EVANS: I have a feeling that that was somebody else’s idea that maybe he should, but I don't think he was ever--if he was, I never heard of it.

FUCHS: Do you know an A. R. Hendrix in northwest Missouri, who was supposed to have been campaign manager for Mr. Truman in that area in 1934, which was his first senatorial campaign?

EVANS: Northwest Missouri? Where?

FUCHS: Well, I don't have the town. A11 I have is...

EVANS: No, I sure don't.

FUCHS: It might have been St. Joseph, I guess that would be northwest Missouri. You don’t know the name, it's not familiar?

EVANS: No, it doesn't ring a bell with me:

FUCHS: What about Paul Dillon?

[744]

EVANS: In St. Louis?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: I knew quite a bit about Paul Dillon, but I'm sorry to say it's not very clear in my mind. I know he was a close friend of Mr. Truman's in '34, and again when he ran for re-election to the Senate, and I'm awful sorry, but I can't tell you the details. He took advantage of Mr. Truman in some manner, shape, or form and Mr. Truman got quite upset with him.

FUCHS: When was this?

EVANS: I think it might have been when he ran for Vice President, but I’m surprised you didn't find it in my files, because he told me in a letter once not to have anything more to do with Paul Dillon. I well remember that. But I can't tell you what the details were. I've just completely forgotten what it was.

FUCHS: He was supposed to have been head of the HST

[745]

organization in St. Louis in the '34 campaign.

EVANS: I think that's right, and again when he ran for Senate reelection. I think it was then that he did something that Mr. Truman didn't like.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything outstanding about Mr. Sermons campaign for governor in 1944, as far as Mr. Truman's connection with it?

EVANS: No, I don't believe I do enough, Jim, to record anything about it. I knew that he had ambitions for governor. I know that he didn't have much of a chance, but it has been so long ago and not having thought about it, I can't actually remember anything about it.

FUCHS: Did you entertain Mr. Truman when he was President at your home on any occasion?

EVANS: No, I don't believe Mr. Truman was ever in my home when he was President. See, I lived out in the country at that time. It seems to me that

[746]

he did come by there once, and of course there was always a flock of Secret Service men and newsmen with him, I think he might have come by, but actually to entertain he and Mrs. Truman in my home during the time he was President, I didn't, because it just entailed too much.

FUCHS: As a man who has been in politics for a long time, what is your impression of Mr. Truman as a politician? What do you consider are his strong points and his weak points?

EVANS: Well, I think one of the greatest assets of any politician, and that was T. J, Pendergast's real asset, was his word. As has often been said of Mr. Pendergast, his word was his bond. I've heard that said hundreds of times by people running big businesses. I remember one man, Mr. A. L. Gustin, Gustin-Bacon Manufacturing Company, went down to see Mr. T. J. Pendergast about

[747]

orders for fire hose for the fire department, and he said, "Well, Mr. Gustin, I'll tell you what I'll do. If I have any influence, you’ll get the business. I don't know whether I have or not, but I'll certainly recommend you."

I remember I said to Gustin, "How did you get along with Mr. Pendergast?"

He said, "Well, he told me he'd recommend me, and I've always understood his word is his bond, you'd better have his word than the bond of the average man."

And I said, "That's right," And he got the fire hose business. And that was Mr. Truman--his word was always good, always sincere. Of course, I think the greatest asset, both when he ran for presiding judge and the Senate on the two occasions, and Vice President and President, was his untiring work. Like in the county when he ran for presiding judge, in the city, eight or ten or twelve speeches a day and when he ran for Senator, he

[748]

was all around the State of Missouri all the time, working; and you know what he did with the vice-presidential and especially the presidential campaign in '48. So, his sincerity and hard work in campaigning was, in my opinion, and the fact that he read and studied constantly, and always had, and had such a wide and versatile knowledge of so many, many things, Jim. It just absolutely always amazed me of the knowledge he had about so many things in connection, not only with Government, but other things. So, all those three combined, made him--what do I want to say--a very successful so-called politician.

FUCHS: What were his weaknesses, if any, that you might call attention to?

EVANS: I think probably the greatest weakness, if you can call it a weakness, is the fact that he stands--I don't know whether we should call it a weakness--but I refer to it as such, and I actually

[749]

guess it is, but it is his standing by his friends, regardless of what happened. I've said to him on many occasions, "Well, I hope when I do something wrong, you'll stick with me as you have with all your friends." And you know, that's the great--I don't want to say "failing"--but he’s always stayed with his friends. I don't know whether that's a weakness or not. And if there is another weakness that he had, and I doubt that you'd call it that, is his inclination at times to speak too abruptly and too quickly. When he speaks, he's telling you what he thinks, so I don't hardly think that's a shortcoming, except I know I've shuddered at times. Like for instance, when he was being interviewed at the Kennedy funeral. Sure he was tired and he was shocked at the horrible death that came to our President. He had flown back and had been in to pay his respects to Mrs. Kennedy and to President Johnson--I don't know whether you saw it--the newsmen cornered

[750]

him with television cameras and started asking him questions, and they wanted to know if he’d seen Mr. Johnson--did you see that?

FUCHS: I may have, I'm not certain.

EVANS: They said, "What did he say?"

And he said, "Well, that's none of your business. Any comments on that have to come from the President."

"Did you tell him what he ought to do?"

"No, I didn't tell him what he ought to do. You fellows have tried to tell me, a lot of you, what I ought to do when I was President, but I never paid any attention to you."

Well, that's what I mean by being a little too abrupt.

In the same interview, they said, "What are you doing from here? What are you going to do?"

"Well," he said, "it's none of your business, but if you'd let me alone, I'd go to the hotel

[751]

where I can sit down."

Well, that's a little too abrupt in my--that's what I mean.

FUCHS: What about Mr. Truman and Civil Rights? Do you think that his public image jibes pretty closely with his private feelings?

EVANS: Yes, I would say that the public image jibes pretty much. I'm sure we recorded about the time the colored man came from the big paper in Cleveland or Cincinnati out to interview him at his home. I happened to be there with him, and I was there while he was interviewing him, and he was asking him a lot of ridiculous questions; and he answered them all and he got up, inviting the man to leave and the man said, "Aren't you going to invite me to stay for dinner?"

And the President said, "No, I'm not going to invite you to stay for dinner."

And the man said, "Why, because of my color?"

[752]

And he said, "No, I choose my friends, There's many a white one couldn't eat dinner in my house."

FUCHS: I hadn't heard that story. Who was that?

EVANS: Well, he represented this big colored newspaper in Cleveland or Cincinnati. I've forgotten the name of it. I happened to be there at the time. That was right after he was elected Vice President, I think maybe it was the day after election. I well remember what he said to him. This man was terrible. He was only trying to agitate and aggravate.

FUCHS: I hadn't heard that,

EVANS: I’ll be darned.

FUCHS: You’ve been known as Mr. Truman's "chief worrier?"

EVANS: He brought that about. He said, with, a group of people one time, shortly after he became

[753]

President--I believe it was the first time I went back after my throat operation--on his birthday on May the 8th, 1945, there was a group around and he said, "You know, Tom is going to have an important job while I'm President. I put him in full charge of my worrying department."

And I said, "Yes, that's fine. I can do a good job. I've always done that good a job, nobody can do it any better."

He said, "That's the reason I never do any worrying. Tom does it all for us."

I said, "I do enough for you and me both."

So, he's always referred to me as his chief worrier.

FUCHS: I wonder if you could comment on these people in connection with their relationship to Mr. Truman? Sid Salomon--from St, Louis, I believe.

EVANS: Yes, the head of a big retail store, wasn’t it?

FUCHS: I really don't know.

[754]

EVANS: Well, I know Sid. I know that in the ‘34 campaign, he did a lot for Mr. Truman in the way of raising funds, arranging parties and places for him to speak. He's been an active Democrat and outstanding businessman, and I'm sorry, but I've forgotten--it doesn't make any difference now--I've forgotten now what his business was. But he was a very capable, outstanding gentleman.

FUCHS: What about Bill Helm?

EVANS: Is that the one that was made a Federal judge?

FUCHS: No, this was Bill Helm who was a newspaperman representing, I believe, one of the Kansas City papers; either the Star or the Journal-Post in Washington. He had connections with Mr. Truman when he was senator and wrote a political biography of Mr. Truman,

EVANS: Well, I know the name.

[755]

FUCHS: He's not a personal friend of yours?

EVANS: No, and if he is, I've sure forgotten him. And I think what the trouble is, I'm getting confused with--it seems to me that that was the name of a…

FUCHS: There's a Neal Helm.

EVANS: Neal Helm, that's who I'm thinking of, Neal Helm.

FUCHS: How does Neal Helm enter into it?

EVANS: Well, now, Neal Helm, isn't he the man who was made the Federal judge down in the Bootheel of Missouri?

FUCHS: He may have been made a judge.

EVANS: I think he was. I think he's judge in the St. Louis District. Anyway, I know that the President has a high regard for him, and I know that when we were setting up, in various campaigns

[756]

Neal Helm--if he is the man that was the Federal judge, always helped the President.

FUCHS: What about Roy McKittrick? That's a name I've seen in connection several times with Missouri politics?

EVANS: Yes, he was former attorney general. I'm sorry, Jim, I can't give you any definite information. I have always personally felt that I didn't want to become too friendly with Roy McKittrick. I hate like the dickens to say that, and I think I learned that from Mr. Truman. I said, "I think," because it's been a long time since he's been back here, active in politics--you know what I mean. And it seems to me that in previous recordings that I was trying to think of a man--Buck Taylor--that ran for governor, I think that was probably against Roy McKittrick, but at any rate, my observation is that Roy McKitterick was never very close to Mr. Truman and Mr. Truman never felt very close to him.

[757]

FUCHS: How about James Aylward?

EVANS: Well, that is a very, very peculiar story. I've known Jim Aylward for many, many years, At one time, he was chairman of the Jackson County Democratic Committee, chairman of the State Democratic Committee, National Democratic Committeeman, and probably--oh, I'm talking about in the thirties--probably one of the great, outstanding Democrats from the State of Missouri. I always had a high regard for him, and I know that Mr. Truman used to have high regard for him but for some unknown reason--this I can't explain, and Mr. Truman knows it, and we've often talked about it--since Mr. Truman was elected President in 1948, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Jim Aylward, has never been at all friendly with Mr. Truman in any manner, shape, or form. And why, nobody knows. I’m very close to his brother, Charlie Aylward, who is president of the Columbia National Bank, where I bank, where Mr. Truman banks, where Mr. Truman now has

[758]

his safe deposit box, where I have mine, where the Harry S. Truman Library Institute has--of course, Charlie is not in politics, and I see Jim in there quite often. There is purely my observation, pure and simple, and I probably shouldn't even say it, but I'm under the impression that it's nothing but pure jealousy, because I can't conceive of it being anything else, but they've never had a kind word since 1948, for anything that Mr. Truman wanted or was doing or interested in. That goes back to Bolling's campaign for Congress over the many years. They've always been against him.

FUCHS: You're speaking of Charles and Jim?

EVANS: No, I'm speaking of Jim, Charles has nothing to do with politics. I just mentioned the fact of how close I am to…

FUCHS: You said "they"--you mean, Jim?

[759]

EVANS: Well, Jim, and then his other brothers, George--oh, he's got three other brothers and he's got a son, all of them active in politics, but Charlie is not. George—Frank--I can't think of them, but he's got two or three other brothers besides Charlie, who is the banker. I just sign it off as, well, apparently old Jim is just--he doesn't know what's wrong himself, but he's just jealous. That's the only thing I can attribute it to. If we would walk into the bank, and Jim is usually there waiting for his brother to go to lunch, and Mr. Truman and I walk into the bank, Jim's very cordial, shakes hands with the President, he's always very cordial to me, but it all ends there, I have tried repeatedly to get Mr. Aylward to talk about putting his papers into the Library, or make some recordings, such as I'm doing, and he's not at all interested, I'm sorry, I can't explain what it is.

FUCHS: What about Mr. Truman as a poker player? Have you played with him, or don't you indulge?

[760]

EVANS: Oh, yes, I’ve played with him lots of times, lots of times. He has only one trouble, playing poker, and I have the same trouble, he’s too inquisitive, and that always costs you money. Nobody enjoys playing poker any more than Mr. Truman, and I get almost as much fun out of seeing him enjoy poker and his side comments. He's a great guy to have combinations--meaning a dead man's hand--I don't even know what it is--but he's got something for everything, and all of our friends that used to play poker with us--we haven't lately--but the first two or three years when he was--I guess the first four or five years out of the White House, we played poker, I guess, two or three times a week, and regularly; but I don’t believe I played poker with Mr. Truman in a year, but he's a lot of fun in a poker game. He doesn't play serious poker. He has lots of fun.

FUCHS: Does he still go to the 822 Club?

[761]

EVANS: Not very much any more, Jim, because it's a long drive from Independence, and frankly I think the reason for it is Mrs. Truman doesn't want him to drive. And I certainly don't insist on it because I hate to have him drive. It's a long drive and, of course, I'm one who feels that even today he has no business driving a car by himself. He ought to have a chauffeur and it ought to be paid for out of the Government funds that he has, and he has it to do with if he would, but he just doesn't want to be extravagant. I think they ought to have it for he and Mrs. Truman; I think it's needed and I think it's one of the worst things in the world. She has no business being out by herself. My wife saw her at a party the other day over at Mission Hills Golf Club (Mrs. Truman I'm speaking about). One of those bad, snowy days, she drove all the way from Independence and left there about four o'clock--traffic starting to get heavy, and Mrs. Truman,

[762]

in her position, in my opinion, should just not be out on the street alone, I've always said that there are a lot of crazy people in the world and after what happened to poor Mr. Kennedy, a lot of people believe that now. There's still a lot of crazy people.

That's best illustrated another way. During the period from that fateful afternoon, the Friday when President Kennedy was shot and killed, you, of course, know the radio stations, television stations, cancelled all commercials and did what, in my opinion, was one of the most outstanding jobs--all broadcasters, networks, and everybody--the rest of that Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Larry Bodinson, who is Dick Bolling's Kansas City assistant, was talking to me on the phone--this was on Wednesday or Thursday--after President Kennedy's funeral on Monday--and he said, "Hey, Mr. Evans, I want to ask you something. I was talking to a friend of mine and he told me that WDAF had received during that period worlds

[763]

of nasty, horrible telephone calls about carrying on the program for President Kennedy? Did you have that same experience out at KCMO?"

And I said, "Oh, I don't think so. I would have known something about it. I haven't heard of it."

And Miss Gaylord, my secretary, happened to be in here when I was talking to him, and I said, "Wait a minute."

"Marie, did you ever hear of anything like that?"

She said, "Well, no, I didn’t."

I said, "Well, check and see," And I went on talking to Larry. And she came back and she said, "Mr. Evans, I didn't know it,"--I think she said that we recorded 380 horrible, nasty, oh, I couldn't begin to put them on tape--what was said to our switchboard operator, like, "Well, all we hear is that damn, horrible, music, honoring that S.O.B. Kennedy," and they

[764]

didn't use the word S.O.B--and it just absolutely made me sick. And the reason for reciting that is again to prove and point that there are a lot of crazy people, and I hate like the dickens to see the former First Lady out by herself in an automobile and I hate to see the former President out by himself. I hope he doesn't see this. He's an awful poor driver. Mrs. Truman is an excellent driver.

FUCHS: Has he always been to your knowledge?

EVANS: Yes, sir, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, as far as I'm concerned--I better doctor this statement up--there's really only one good driver, Jim, in the whole world and that's me; I'm the best. And do you know why, because it suits me the best.

FUCHS: Do you have any other comments regarding Mrs. Truman or any anecdotes?

[765]

EVANS: Oh, I don't think of any. Probably if I sat down and tried to think of some I could think of a lot of them, but not right offhand, I don't.

FUCHS: What about Vivian Truman? How would you characterize him as the President's brother, and so forth?

EVANS: Well, of course, as you well know, there's no comparison between the two. Vivian in his way is a wonderful fellow, and I think really--I never thought Vivian was very much of a politician because he's not a diplomat. He's either for you or agin' you; there's no half way. And a successful politician has got to get along pretty well with the people whom he knows are not his friends. Vivian never got too much into politics. Of course, he couldn't avoid it any more than I could. When his brother became President, he got called on too often.

FUCHS: How about Mary Jane, the President's sister?

[766]

EVANS: From what?

FUCHS: Characterization of her...

EVANS: Oh, she's a grand, grand lady, one of the best. I have a great admiration--well, I would anyway, because she's the President's sister--but I do from the standpoint that she devoted her life to her mother, and in later years, after Mr. Truman became President, she was terribly ill. Of course, for years prior to that, Mary Jane had devoted her entire life to looking after her mother, and anybody that does anything like that just, you can't help but admire. During that period I got to know Miss Mary a lot better, because I was out there so much and would have occasion at times to do something, such as getting a radio set for them, and getting certain medicine that was hard to get and things like that. And, of course, Mary Jane has devoted a lot of time to the Eastern Star, and she is just a very, very wonderful person.

[767]

FUCHS: You know when Mr. Roosevelt died and Mr. Truman as Vice President was taking over, there was considerable speculation as to whether he was as liberal as Roosevelt or whether he was basically a conservative. How did you feel about him at that time?

EVANS: Well, actually, I felt that he was much more conservative, and I'm sure that he was, than President Roosevelt. I think we're all familiar with the plan that President Roosevelt had for packing, so to speak, the Supreme Court--I mean, it's pretty well written. Actually, Mr. Truman was bitterly opposed to that--had talked to me about it on various occasions and, I think--this may seem rather strange to you--but I think he, Mr. Truman, had a much greater concept had insight into the problems of the average businessman, the big, little, small, or what have you, than Mr. Roosevelt ever had. In other words, I often say, "Well, so-and-so can't do a better job because he never had the experience of trying to pay $100,000

[768]

worth of bills with $50,000," But Harry Truman did have that experience, you know, running a business and worrying about overhead and everything else. Well, Mr. Roosevelt never did. So, as a result, I'm sure that Mr. Truman was much more conservative. It's also my opinion that when Mr. Roosevelt was first elected, he was most conservative, but he got pretty liberal, very rapidly.

FUCHS: Of course, Mr. Truman was noted for going down the line pretty much with Mr. Roosevelt. If I'm not mistaken, didn't he support Mr. Roosevelt's Supreme Court plan?

EVANS: I think in the final stages, yes. That you'd have to check, which is, of course, a matter of record. But I happen to know that he was bitterly opposed to it because he would talk to me about it. I think maybe he might have said that he couldn't openly do it, but he was in hopes that it wouldn't carry, and it didn’t.

[769]

Isn't that right? I'm not so sure but maybe some of the work, he did in behind the scenes, kept it from going. Now that is only supposition.

FUCHS: Well, unless you can think of something that I've overlooked (I'm sure I've overlooked many things) why, that's all I have to inquire about.

EVANS: Well, then I guess we're ready to quit. When do I get paid?

FUCHS: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Evans.