Tom L. Evans Oral History Interview, April 17, 1963

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened August, 1966
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

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FUCHS: The last time, Tom, we got down to 1940 and the second campaign of Mr. Truman for the Senate, and we discussed the election night; but I have a few other questions I'd like to ask about that campaign and election. One I might start with, is that I understand Hannegan, who was a political subordinate of Mayor Bernard Dickmann in St. Louis, and who was supporting, in the beginning, Stark, later switched to Mr. Truman. Do you know anything about that?

EVANS: Well, very little, Jim, frankly. I think what you say is true, that he was supporting Stark and for some reason I don't know, he did, I believe, maybe on the last day before election, switch over to Mr. Truman. But I'm sorry to say I was not familiar with it, who, so to speak, got it done or how it was arranged or what it was. I did know at least the day before election, maybe it

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was a couple of days or possibly three, but what the particulars were or who arranged it, or why, I don't know.

FUCHS: Did you ever discuss it with Mr. Truman?

EVANS: No, other than the fact that I remember the day before election: "Well, we're going to get some support that we didn't have in the form of Hannegan, and some other good friends in St. Louis," but I never pressed him as to who--God, it could be one of a hundred people who arranged it, or maybe a good many people.

FUCHS: A student, in his doctoral dissertation states that, on the basis of an interview with you, Mr. Truman admitted some years later--after the 1940 primary campaign--that he (Mr. Truman) had had something to do with Milligan entering that race. [Gene Schmidtlein: Truman the Senator, unpublished doctoral dissertation (University of Missouri, 1962), p. 217]

EVANS: I may have had something to do with Mr. Maurice Milligan staying in the race, because after we finished the interview at the President Hotel

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which I once told you about, where Vic Messall and Kenneth Miller and Mr. Truman and myself were, Kenneth Miller and Vic Messall left for Jefferson City to file the papers for Mr. Truman for the nomination. I think it was that same afternoon, I went over to see Tuck Milligan, Maurice Milligan's brother. By way of explaining why I could go to Tuck Milligan, I think I have explained that Tuck Milligan was the lawyer who when I started to get into the radio business back in December of '35 or early '36, went back to Washington with my associate, Mr. Cox of Springfield, Missouri, and handled this matter. He was there a number of days and I paid him a rather substantial fee for his services. So I felt close to him.

FUCHS: This was your first acquaintanceship with Tuck?

EVANS: With Tuck, yes. Oh, I knew him when he was congressman, but not intimately. But when you employ a lawyer to represent you and you travel

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to Washington and are there a week or ten days and back, you get pretty close to him. So I went directly from the President Hotel--I'm sure it was that afternoon--and went to Tuck and said: "Tuck, I think it would be a good idea--I think if your brother is nominated, he can be elected and would make a good senator; and I want to tell you that I will be glad to help you out with a financial contribution when your committee for his election is set up, I'll give you $500."

He said, "Give it to me now, because the committee is already set up."

Maurice, his brother, I'm sure had filed, but there was some talk about him withdrawing. I felt that if we could keep Mr. Milligan in there that he and Mr. Stark would split some votes and might help Mr. Truman. So he said to make out the check to the "Milligan for Senator Committee," and I did that very day. Later I told Mr. Truman that for once I was supporting the candidate who was opposing him and he looked at me kind of funny and

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said, "What do you mean? When did you quit me?"

I said, "Well, I just think Maurice Milligan will make a pretty good senator. I went over and contributed to his campaign."

He said, "I don't want to know anything about that. I wish a lot of my friends were off of me as much as you are, I might be elected."

And I think that's all he knew about it. I never discussed it further with him.

FUCHS: Why did Clark oppose Stark, in your opinion?--Bennett "Champ" Clark, who was the senator elected in 1932.

EVANS: Why he opposed Stark?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: Well, because Milligan was his close, intimate friend. He was for Milligan.

FUCHS: Do you think that's the only reason--he was very close to Milligan. Someone once said that they thought that Clark felt Stark was supplanting

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him as a leader in the Democratic party in Missouri.

EVANS: Oh, I don't think so. He'd always been very friendly with Milligan, Tuck particularly, the one I referred to. He had always been very, very close with Bennett Clark.

FUCHS: There was a Roy Williams who Milligan selected to be his manager, as I understand it, and the story is that Mr. Truman was glad, because Roy Williams was a former Stark man and he thought that by Milligan hiring Williams that they would be attacking Stark, and I suppose divert attention from him. Do you have any knowledge of Roy Williams?

EVANS: No, I don't. I remember Williams, but I had no knowledge of him being a Stark man at all. Do you remember where he was from?

FUCHS: No, I don't.

EVANS: I just barely remember that he was active in Maurice Milligan's campaign, but this is the

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first I've heard of him being close to Stark. He may have been but I didn't know it.

FUCHS: As I understand it, Messall was made campaign chairman. He resigned his position as secretary to Mr. Truman to handle the campaign, and he was headquartered in Sedalia, and there was an individual designated as "Director General," whose name was David Berenstein, and he was in the St. Louis office. Do you recall anything about Berenstein?

EVANS: No, I don't, Jim. I thought maybe you were mispronouncing Barringer's name, of Memphis, Tennessee. I don't remember this man; I don't remember anything about him. He, frankly, must have been more or less handling the St. Louis situation the way I was the Kansas City situation. I had no contact with him at all.

FUCHS: I have a letterhead used by the Harry S. Truman renomination and election committee in 1940, which indicated you were chairman of the radio broadcast division. Do you have any remarks in connection

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with that title and your activities?

EVANS: I think they passed out titles pretty easily. No, I really don't remember anything about that title. I certainly didn't confine my fund raising to the broadcasting industry. In fact, I think it probably should have been the drug industry because that's where I raised a substantial amount of money from my friends throughout the country--Los Angeles, Boston, New York, Miami, Seattle--all over. I had lots of friends, because I was operating a chain of drugstores in those days, as you know, and was buying from manufacturers all over the country; and a number of them had met Mr. Truman in his first term as senator, because we in the drug business in those days were constantly appearing in Washington before committees in connection with health and welfare, the food and drug committees. And of course, I was there a lot on radio; but a number of my friends in the drug industry had met Mr. Truman and they liked him, and I told them he was running for re-election and

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had a hard fight and needed money. And I got help, surprisingly, from all over, due, I think, to two things. They were friends of mine and they had had the privilege of meeting Mr. Truman in Washington with me on numerous occasions. Oh, I can think of a number of people that contributed that had really no local interest than the fact that they were my friends and had met Mr. Truman. I think of one man, Harry Cooper, a Jewish individual who was in the razor blade manufacturing business, competitors of Gillette. He had met Mr. Truman in Washington and liked him very much. (I bought some of his merchandise.) In fact, I think I had introduced him; he was a friend of Eddie Jacobson, Mr. Truman's former partner. I wrote him a letter and he sent me a check for $250.00 for the campaign. Another gentleman I think of was the executive vice president and sales manager of McKesson & Robbins. I think of his name now--Wilbur Dewell. Wilbur had had some difficulty in the Food and Drug Administration.

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I was in Washington; I met him; I introduced him to Mr. Truman when he was senator; I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think he might have had a lunch or dinner with Mr. Truman. But anyway, I wrote him and he gave me a nice contribution. That's only an illustration of the help that I got.

Getting back to the man in St. Louis, I didn't have anything to do with fund raising in St. Louis nor neither did Dave with fund raising in Kansas City. However, I did get contributions from a number of my personal friends that I happened to know in St. Louis, like a man by the name of Al Manlin. He was in the insurance business, has been for many years. He used to carry all my insurance for all the Crown Drug Company property. He carried all my insurance to all my business--does to this day--he carries my personal insurance. He had met Mr. Truman. Mr. Manlin was quite an admirer and he sent me a contribution, Al Gasen, a chain drugstore operator, who still, by the way, operates a chain of drugstores in St. Louis. He

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had met Mr. Truman on at least two or three occasions; he sent me a nice contribution. A man by the name of Williams a stockbroker in St. Louis, who had had a hand in financing Crown Drug Company when I was head of that, sent me a nice contribution. So those were the only contacts I had in St. Louis, and they had none up here, unless some of them had some. So I didn't know this man at all.

FUCHS: Did you send the contributions you received to Vaughan then?

EVANS: There wasn't any way to keep from it, because he was calling all the time for money. He needed the money because he had bills and he was, of course, the treasurer of the committee,

FUCHS: Did you have any meetings that you recall during the campaign, say with Victor Messall or with Mr. Truman or with Harry Vaughan? Was there any occasion to get together in those few months?

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EVANS: Yes, I think Vic Messall and I were together on a number of occasions. I was with Mr. Truman when he opened his campaign--drove down with him from here to Sedalia, and Vic was there. We were together long before the campaign opened on the steps of the courthouse, in meetings and afterwards. But Vic wasn't around Kansas City very much. He was more out-state and maybe in St. Louis. But I saw him quite often.

FUCHS: Any particular thing you remember about that opening of the campaign, in Mr. Truman's talk, or any incident that happened in Sedalia? I believe there were other senators there from other states.

EVANS: Oh, yes, there were a number. In fact, I can't recall who it was. You probably know from your...

FUCHS: Schwellenbach was there.

EVANS: Yes, he was the principal speaker, outside of Mr. Truman. Oh yes, there were a number of Senators there.

FUCHS: It was quite an occasion. They had a good crowd?

EVANS: Yes, a good crowd.

FUCHS: There is a story about Victor Messall in

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connection with the campaign funds in 1940 which, perhaps, you'd like to relate.

EVANS: I know what you mean and in that connection, I knew actually nothing about this situation until the 1944 vice-presidential campaign. The reason that it came up at that time, I guess--or I probably never would have known anything about it--Vic Messall called me from Washington and suggested that Mrs. Evans and I and Mrs. Messall and he join with Mr. Truman on his campaign tour for the vice-presidency, and travel the entire United States with him, stating that he thought we could both be of some help to him and asked me to clear it with him (HST). I guess I should have thought it was funny that he would call me to do that instead of him doing it; but, nevertheless, I called Mr. Truman and said I had talked to Vic Messall and we felt maybe we could be of some help and wondered what he thought about Mrs. Evans and I and Mrs. Messall and Vic traveling with him.

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And he immediately said, "I'd be delighted to have you and Mrs. Evans, but I will not have Vic Messall and his wife."

I was shocked to know there was any difficulty whatever and finally he told me that the reason for it was that in the 1940 campaign, when we needed money so bad to pay campaign expenses, that he knew positively that some of the funds that Vic had collected from St. Louis never got in the campaign treasury. And he was quite upset about it and he said, "He positively cannot go; I won't have him."

So, I called Vic back and told him that I talked to the Senator, and the Senator didn't seem very much interested in either one of us going and I guessed it was out. Later Mr. Truman called me and insisted that my wife and I meet them on the campaign and go with them, and I told him I couldn't on account of Vic, and he said, "Well, that don't make any difference. I want you to go."

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So, I was quite embarrassed, but I called Vic and told him that for some reason the Senator was upset about him and that he didn't want he and Mrs. Messall to go, but requested that Mrs. Evans and I go on the trip and that I was going; and I wanted him to know about it. The campaign trip [accommodations] consisted of a private car. It was the private car of the president of some railroad. Now, I don't know whether it was Mr. Deramus' of the Kansas City Southern, or some other railroad. But anyway, it was a private car that had, of course, a dining room and, I think, a drawing room and three compartments and a sitting room. That car was attached to the regular train. And if there was an overnight stop, it was set off and picked up by a regular train. When Mrs. Evans and I joined up at the first stop, why, it was customary for the reporters and the people to be at the rear to hear Mr. Truman make a quick speech; and here was Vic Messall and his wife, who were on the train, ran back there to stand

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up there on the steps to get in a picture, but they never got in the car. Mr. Truman wouldn't permit it. That went on all over the entire country. They planned ahead and bought their tickets, got back to the back end of the car and back up into the main part of the train before it pulled out, every stop we made. Like in Peoria, I remember we were there two nights and two days in the '44 campaign. That's when they broke the story of the Ku Klux Klan on Mr. Truman. Why, Vic and his wife were there for the whole time, but not riding on the special car. It was a little embarrassing to me, but through it all, Vic and I remained pretty good friends. Later when Mr. Truman became President, not once was Vic Messall ever in the White House. He had put out an order that he was not, under any circumstances, to come into the White House. He was completely off of him. He had a big public relations business and apparently made a tremendous amount of money. But then things turned bad for

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him and he was in hard circumstances. Later I learned from a reliable source that Mr. Truman had helped him out financially, and not too long ago I understand Mrs. Messall passed away and President Truman, who I know so well and know his big heart just wanted to do something, and Vic was in hard circumstances, and I'm almost certain he gave him, at least, $2,000. And only just a few weeks ago, he was out to the Library to see him, so you know him (Mr. Truman), too, Jim. It's pretty hard far him to be against, to be mad at any of his old friends. But back in '41, '42, '43 and '44, he was certainly off of Vic Messall.

FUCHS: Did you ever converse with Mr. Messall when he was running around from one car to the next in '44?

EVANS: Oh, yes.

FUCHS: Did Mr. Truman?

EVANS: No, Mr. Truman never spoke to him.

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FUCHS: Was he close to him at times?

EVANS: He was close to him on the train. He'd be back around there. And it got to be quite a laughing matter between Mr. Truman and Ed McKim and Matt Connelly and Mrs. Evans and myself, about how they'd run back to be at that special car.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman did talk about it then?

EVANS: Oh yes, sure. We all talked about it among ourselves, but not to Vic.

FUCHS: Do you recall fairly clearly who rode on that car in the 1944 campaign?

EVANS: Oh, yes. Ed McKim, Matt Connelly, and George Allen were on the train when we joined it, and George Allen left because there wasn't room for him after Mrs. Evans and I got there. George Allen is the gentleman that, I guess, is best known, perhaps for writing the book Presidents That Have Known Me and was a great friend of Franklin Delano Roosevelt; was supposed to be a

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great friend of Mr. Truman when he became President; and was a great friend of Mr. Eisenhower and was supposed to be the man who went to Europe and who got him to say "yes" to run for the Presidency on the Republican ticket; the man who bought the farm in Gettysburg, and lives, I understand, next to him, and incidentally, was the first President of the Harry S. Truman, Inc., the corporation that was organized to raise the funds to build the building. That's who was on the train. That's all the room there was for anybody, because, as I said, we had one drawing room, which Mr. Truman had, and three compartments. And as you know, Mrs. Truman or Margaret was not on that campaign at all until we came down--well, we went to Boston, down to New England and to New York and had a big rally in Madison Square Garden. I'm still talking about the '44 campaign. That's where we waited and waited and waited for Henry Wallace to walk in and he didn't show up until just (you've heard that story) two minutes before he was supposed to.

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Instead of taking a car over with a chauffeur, he decided to walk. So he was a little late getting there. We were all on pins and needles, That was a big rally at Madison Square Garden. We left there and went to Washington and there we picked up Margaret and Mrs. Truman; I don't know how we did it, but anyway they joined us there and went to Virginia and on to St. Louis and up to Kansas City.

FUCHS: We got into this 1944 talk by talking about Messall maintaining his appearance of being close to Mr. Truman, which brings us back to his departure from Mr. Truman in 1941. What is your idea as to the reason he did leave Mr. Truman after being with him from '35 until '41 and going through the campaign with him?

EVANS: Well, I think he had planned this all along, in fact, I'm positive sure he had. I think Mr. Truman knew it prior to the 1940 campaign, that he was planning to retire and had his blessing

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in opening a public relations office, that is, at that time. I don't know that, but I'm under the impression. I'm reminded of a story that Vic once told me. I imagine it was the middle of the year, 1939. It was my custom to be there if I wanted to see somebody over at the Food and Drug department; maybe the commissioner or commissioner to the Federal Communications Department or any one of a dozen agencies; I had a lot to do with a lot of them. If you went over cold and tried to see one of those commissioners, why, you'd be a couple of three days before you'd get in; then you wouldn't get much consideration, they'd shove you off on somebody. So I found early that the thing to do was to get a congressman or a senator (preferably a senator because in Washington there are too many congressmen, and senators have quite a little power). Bennett Clark would make appointments for me, and so I would use Vic Messall without bothering Mr. Truman. I remember one time particularly, I said,

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"Vic, I want to talk to the Secretary of the Interior about a matter out in Missouri." Something, as I remember it, in regard to a national park that we wanted to get out in this section of the country. So, he picked up the phone and called his Secretary and told him this was Messall, secretary to Senator Truman, and that Senator Truman wanted to make an appointment for his friend Tom Evans from Kansas City to see Mr. So-and-So. That way, you go over, you get right in and you get your business taken care of. So I had used Vic lots and lots of times. And that time Vic said, "I want to tell you. I'm through making appointments for these people who are making all kinds of money with the help that we give them here in this office. I'm getting tired of doing it. I'm going to quit my job and open a public relations office and people are going to pay me and pay me plenty to open these doors for them in Government."

I got on Vic, and I said, "Let me tell you something Vic. You're here--the reason you got

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this help and built this following was due a lot to my help in putting Mr. Truman here. If he hadn't been here, you wouldn't be here. I don't intend to pay you a dime and I still expect you to continue..."

"Oh," he said, "I don't mean you; I'll always make appointments for you, but that's going to be my business."

This brings up another incident regarding a group from St. Joseph. I was in Washington and the president of the Chamber of Commerce, the executive secretary and a couple of businessmen--I knew most of them--ran into them, I think, at breakfast at the Mayflower and agreed to have dinner with them that evening and Vic was with them. We got to talking and they were up there--this was in, I think, '41. I'm sure it was. We were not at war but we were doing a lot or preparing for war and a lot of industry was getting war contracts although we were not at war. I said, "What are you doing here?"

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"Well, we wanted to get some of this war work back in St. Joseph; it's going all over the country and we need it. We've employed Vic Messall and his firm to represent us."

Well, I learned that they had paid him a retainer fee of $10,000 and were paying him a substantial annual fee, and that was only one of several--Vic did real well. And of course, he did know his way around; he knew these commissioners and heads of departments galore. But apparently he wasn't getting along at all with Mr. Truman, but they didn't know it. Even other senators and congressmen and commissioners and heads of departments did not know.

FUCHS: You don't know if his break with Mr. Truman came at the time he left, that is whether or not Mr. Truman knew about the funds at that time or whether he went into the public relations business and was on good terms with Mr. Truman for a while and then subsequently Mr. Truman...?

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EVANS: No, I don't know. I'm under the impression that Mr. Truman knew at the time that he left, but he said nothing about it. Later, of course, I found out what I've just told you. You understand it was four years later before even I knew anything about it. Because knowing Mr. Truman as I do, as I've often said, "Once his friend, always his friend." He never does anything to his friends. I've said to him, "I hope," (sometimes a little bit in anger when he's stood up for some people that were supposed to be his friends that in my opinion had done him wrong) "Boss, I hope you'll be as kind to me when I do something wrong as you are with most of your friends." But he is, as you know, very much that way. He just doesn't want to do anything to hurt any of his close friends, although he was terribly angry at Messall.

FUCHS: Do you have any knowledge of Messall promising postmasterships, either while Mr. Truman was senator or vice president or after he was President, and being unable to deliver, of course, in obtaining

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these postmasterships for those he promised?

EVANS: No, I know absolutely nothing about it except I'm sure he couldn't deliver on that. But I had never even heard about it. I presume, if that existed, it was maybe sometime after he had started to lose his wonderful public relations business. Eventually people found out that he couldn't deliver, and when Mr. Truman became President and he couldn't get into the White House, that's when they commenced to drift away from him. But I never knew anything about that. I never even heard of it until you mentioned it a while ago.

FUCHS: Now, you apparently were very successful in raising a certain amount of funds in the 1940 campaign. Did you find anyone bringing up the fact that Mr. Truman was close to Pendergast and Pendergast had now gone to jail and he didn't feel that he should associate himself with the campaign in any way, or did that not occur?

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EVANS: I suspect that it did occur, but everybody knew that Mr. Truman had been friendly with Mr. Pendergast, had been what we term out here in Missouri, a Pendergast Goat Democrat, and outside of his opposition and the people that were for his opponent, it never came up. Maybe somebody didn't contribute because of that.

FUCHS: No one that you had talked to and knew had always been for Mr. Truman used that as an excuse to not contribute.

EVANS: No, not a one.

FUCHS: What part did Battery D play in that campaign? Do you recall them playing any significant part in contributing funds?

EVANS: I don't think Battery D as an organization, contributed any funds at all. I'm sure they didn't.

FUCHS: You don't remember them being active as a

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group?

EVANS: No, I don't think as a group they were active, but individually they were plenty active. Of course, Eddie Jacobson was not a member of Battery D, but he was tremendous help in the 1940 campaign. Judge Albert Ridge was a great deal of help--oh, many of them, but all as individuals, just like I was.

FUCHS: There wasn't any general appeal that went out to former members of Battery D to get together and contribute to Mr. Truman's campaign, that you recall?

EVANS: As far as I know there wasn't. I don't believe there was. If so, I knew nothing about it.

FUCHS: There is a story about an earlier occasion, I believe it was the 1934 campaign, in which one writer says they raised $300--this is just one writer's tale. I wondered if any similar thing happened?

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EVANS: I was not familiar with it in the '34 campaign or in the '40 campaign.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman didn't have much trouble in the general election. What do you recall about Manvel Davis and his campaign as a Republican nominee against Mr. Truman?

EVANS: Well, I don't recall very much in particular about it; I knew Manvel Davis very well; he was a nice fellow.

FUCHS: Was he a lawyer?

EVANS: Yes, I'm inclined to think he was. He had some elective office in Jefferson City. Do you know what it was, I can't remember?

FUCHS: I don't recall if he did.

EVANS: ...senator--or something. But it was almost a foregone conclusion that whoever received the nomination would be elected. We didn't worry much about the election. The Democratic victories were

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won in the primary, and that pretty much holds true today, except when we get in trouble with poor candidates like out in Mr. Truman's own district--the Fourth District. We had, a number of years ago, a very poor candidate for congressman from the Fourth District, Mr. Truman's district. He won the nomination; he was a labor leader; I can't recall his name but he was head of the hod-carriers' union. There were a number of candidates and he won the nomination. Well, that was a moral cinch that he would be elected because no Democrat has ever been defeated, but the Democrats were so upset by the fact that he had won the nomination, that they banded together and elected Mr. Hillelson, a Republican, congressman. The Democrats actually elected him. Mr. Hillelson, very shortly after he became congressman, like most people in Washington, think the world rests on their shoulders, as Mr. Truman terms it; it's the greatest place in the world to get that horrible disease Potomac Fever--most all of them get it. Well, Hillelson got it terrible

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and he did everything he could to embarrass Mr. Truman, although the Democrats actually elected him, even to the point of filing charges against Mr. Truman's postmaster, Edgar Hinde, who had been postmaster of Independence for many years. I'm sure you know that a postmaster nowadays, and has been for many years, is under Civil Service, and cannot be discharged except for cause. To discharge a postmaster, you have to file charges against him and have a hearing and prove them; and if they're proved, why, then they are dismissed. It turns out when charges are filed against a postmaster, be he in Independence or Kansas City or Paducah or New York or what have you, rather than to fight it and have a lot of publicity, in most cases they just resign. I always had a cute story--I don't believe I ever told you this one, Jim. Mr. Hillelson filed charges against Edgar Hinde and they were horrible charges. Some things that I wouldn't even dare put in the recorder for your young lady to hear--they were just that bad.

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FUCHS: She's pretty broad minded.

EVANS: Well, these charges included the fact that he was drinking, drunk in the postoffice, was having immoral parties with women in the postoffice, and oh, my, all kinds. Well, anybody that knew Edgar Hinde would know that that was not true. So, Mr. Truman called me one day and asked me if I could have lunch with him and I, of course, said, "Yes," and met him and he said, "I'll tell you what I want you to do. They're filing charges against my postmaster who has only got a couple of years to go and he'll be on full retirement, and this fellow Hillelson's filing them and I want you to stop him." Mr. Eisenhower, a Republican, was President at that time.

And I said, "Well, Mr. President, you probably have forgotten the fact that I'm a Democrat. I don't have any influence in Washington." I said, "You'll have to get a Republican to do something for you."

And he said, "Well, that's why I'm talking to you."

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And I said, "Why talk to me. I'm still a Democrat, didn't you know that?" And I laughed.

He said, "Yes."

I said, "There's only one man that I know of that could do any good."

And he said, "Who's that?"

And I said, "Harry Darby."

Harry Darby is the National Republican Committeeman from Kansas; served as a senator by appointment in Kansas; a wonderful fellow and a man who loves Harry Truman, and one of my great friends, although he's a Republican and I'm a Democrat. Oh, we've been friends for years. And he said, "That's why I'm talking to you, I want you to see Harry Darby."

Well, gosh, if Harry Darby could do anything for Mr. Truman, he'd be just the same as I am, he'd be tickled to death to do it. So I went to Harry and told him the story and told him the President asked me to come to him. Incidentally, we'd done some favors for Harry when Mr. Truman was

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in the White House. Not that that made any difference because Harry Darby would have been glad to do anything for Mr. Truman. Well, anyway, to make a long story short, Mr. Darby got Mr. Summerfield who was then postmaster general out here, and he was here about a week investigating. Anyway, the charges were dropped, and Mr. Hinde the postmaster held his job up until retirement. So those are the things that go on in politics.

Oh, I could tell you a number of stories about Harry Darby and President Truman. Have I ever told you the one, Jim, about when Mr. Truman refused to see Mr. Darby when he was President?

FUCHS: No, I haven't heard that one.

EVANS: Well, I don't know just when it was when he was President, but anyway here is the story. I went into breakfast one morning in the Statler Hotel about seven o'clock, and my friend Harry Darby (Remember he's a National Republican Committeeman from Kansas, but my good friend and Mr. Truman’s

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good friend--always have been. Darby's a great Shriner and, of course, you know Mr. Truman was. Well, they've been intimate friends.)--when I walked in, of course, we were both glad to see each other and sat down and had breakfast and he said, "Where are you going?"

And I said, "I'm going over to the White House right now because I find if I get over there about a quarter till eight, none of the staff is there and it's a good time to visit with the President and so I get over early in the morning."

And he said, "Gee, I'd love to just say hello and shake hands with him; I haven't seen him since he became President."

I said, "Fine, Harry, let me check up and see, if he's not too busy maybe you could run over. Where will you be, where I can get a hold of you?"

And he told me. So I went on over to the White House (none of the staff was there)--went right in to see the President and we visited a minute

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and I said, "Mr. President, I went in to have breakfast this morning, and as I went into the breakfast room at the Statler Hotel, I saw the National Committeeman from Kansas. We visited and he expressed a great desire to come in and pay his respects and shake hands, and I wondered if that would be possible?"

That jaw of his--his mouth went shut and his jaw stuck out as I know so well when he's a little upset or mad, and he said, "By God, I'm surprised at you suggesting that that S.O.B." (and he didn't say S.O.B.) "that you'd want to bring him over to see me."

Well, I was just amazed because Mr. Truman and Harry Darby and I had always been good friends. I was just shocked--I was speechless. I remember I had to gulp a little to get my throat cleared and I said, "I'm sorry, I didn't know there was any trouble, He's always been my friend."

He said, "Always been your friend. How can you say that to me after what he did to me at the

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convention in Chicago?"

And I said, "Harry Darby's always been..."

"Who?"

"Harry Darby."

"Is that who you're talking about?"

I said, "Yes."

"Oh, I thought you were talking about Carl Rice, the National Democratic Committeeman. Sure I want to see old Harry. Bring him over right away."

He was willing to see the National Republican Committeeman, but he didn't want to see Carl Rice the National Democratic Committeeman. They'd never gotten along. I get back into the '44 campaign when I get to rambling along here because one leads to the other. You know Mr. Truman did not want to be Vice President, believe it or not; I'm sure he was sincere. We'll probably get into that later, but anyway, he didn't want to be. I was there with him. We had banners and horns and hats and everything. He wouldn't let us use--

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wouldn't let us use a sign of any kind. He didn't want to be Vice President. He then got a telephone call from Mr. Franklin Delano Roosevelt; he agreed that he would be and he turned around, "A11 right, my hat's in the ring. Don't you guys let me lose. Now get out and go to work."

So we sat down and divided up the states of who we would go to call on, who to see if they would support Mr. Truman--you know--votes by the states. You know I'm quite lazy, and I wanted to take the easy state, so, of course, I took Missouri. I knew they'd be a hundred percent and Kansas I knew I could handle and states in the Midwest. Carl Rice was Democratic National Committeeman from Kansas, so I took Kansas and the very first call I made was on Carl Rice. I knew him real well, intimate. So I went to see Carl, and I said (this was in '44), "Carl, the Senator has now thrown his hat in the ring and he's out to be nominated for Vice President. I guess I can count on the Kansas delegation vote." See he was the National Committeeman.

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He said, "Hell, no. Are you talking about Truman?"

"Yes, of course."

He said, "Hell, no, he isn't qualified to be senator; you won't get any votes from Kansas and certainly never mine."

FUCHS: He said he wasn't qualified to be senator?

EVANS: "He's not qualified to be senator let alone Vice President," that was it. "And he won't get any votes from Kansas and never will get mine."

Well, I was shocked and flabbergasted. I went to the individual members. I did get him, I think, six or eight votes. But Carl Rice never did support him. So when I walk in out of the cold blue at a quarter till eight one morning and say the National Committeeman from Kansas I want to bring in, he couldn't understand why I wanted to bring Carl Rice in. You see what I mean? It was Harry Darby, the Republican. But I thought that was funny.

FUCHS: Did you ever tell Harry Darby that story?

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EVANS: Sure, I should say I did. Yes, sir.

FUCHS: What was the inception of the friendship between Mr. Truman and Harry Darby?

EVANS: Oh, I think over a number of years. Harry Darby is a great industrialist in Kansas City, Kansas, but works, does and has for, well, since the early thirties, works just as hard for something in Kansas City, Missouri because he felt it would help Kansas. He has always been active in politics in Kansas. Very pronounced. He's a man who could have been governor of Kansas anytime he said "I will." That's all he would have had to do. He was highway commissioner, if I remember correctly (I wouldn't swear to it), the year Mr. Truman was elected senator the first time--'34, Harry was highway commissioner. They would have a lot to do, not with the roads, but in meetings and talking and so forth. They just liked each other. So, I've been friendly with Harry Darby since--longer than I ever want to

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talk about--back in the early twenties; he served as my director in Crown Drug Company, oh, for many years. He and I serve on a number of boards together and we've always been close, intimate friends. I'm getting up to the '48 campaign now.

FUCHS: That's all right.

EVANS: Well, in 1948, very few people gave Mr. Truman much chance of winning. The Shrine put on a tremendous, gigantic, big banquet at the Kansas City Club for Mr. Truman. Harry Darby, as I told you was a great Shriner. Of course, you know how active Mr. Truman was in the Shrine. I belong to the Masonic Lodge, but I got too busy running drugstores and never went on up and devoted the time that those fellows did; I had to work for a living. But at that particular banquet--oh, it was a beautiful affair--there was a table with the then President of the United States and Mrs. Truman, several high dignitaries, and there was several speakers' tables--and a head table, so to speak. Then there

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was another table, lower down. Mr. Truman had asked me to take care of his sister Mary, so Mrs. Evans and I were seated there, and they arranged it for her to be with Mrs. Evans and I. I was sitting on the end and Miss Mary was next to me and then Mrs. Evans, at one of the head tables. I motioned for Harry Darby to come up and he came up and went over and shook hands with the President and he came by with me and said, "He's a wonderful guy." He said, "You know what? I'm sure you're not going to win, but you've sure scared the hell out of we Republicans and made us work."

And I said, "I wouldn't be so sure that we're not going to win," although I was sure we were not going to win, but I didn't want to show it. I said, "I'll tell you what I'll do with you. You're tired; I'm tired; we both need rest. I'll make a deal with you." This was Saturday night before the election was on Tuesday. "I'll tell you what I'll do. Let's you and Edith,"

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(that's Mrs. Darby) "and Mamie Lou," (that's my wife) "and I, go to Colorado Springs next Saturday. It will be a little cool out there, but we'll get away from everything, and we'll rest for ten days. And the loser pays all expenses. If Mr. Truman wins, you pay Mamie Lou's and my expense and..." I figured I could afford it and he was a nice guy and we'd enjoy being with him.

He said, "Brother, that's the best bet I ever had."

Well, we left and I never felt so sorry for anybody in my life. I didn't even razz him. But he did pay all the expenses and we were there ten days.

FUCHS: About the '40 campaign where Mr. Truman was reputed to have driven around the state a great deal in his own automobile, did you go on any of those trips? You already stated that you were at Sedalia, but did you go on any of the other trips?

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EVANS: Yes, I made a few of them, as I'm sure we have recorded. Mr. Truman, actually, according to the dates of our birth, is twelve years older than I am, so I should really be able to do most anything he does, but I can't; I never have been able to; he's been wearing me out for forty years and driving around in that old car of his in the State of Missouri and making seven, eight, nine speeches a day and shaking hands with people, I couldn't take, so I got out of most of them, I'll tell you that. I made one trip with him down through Missouri. I don't remember even where it was, but it was a small town where we stayed all night and we were through and ready to leave after he'd made a speech at 6 o'clock in the morning--I don't get awake at that time. We traveled and I stopped and made speeches and after about three days I was completely worn out. So I, both in the '34 campaign and in the '40 campaign, I quit. I came back from the '44 campaign, by the way, where I didn't have anything to do--he made all the

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speeches, and shook hands and had all the grief on his shoulder--I didn't have anything to do except to do his worrying for him and wave at people from the back platform; that's all I really had to do and I lost seventeen pounds on the campaign and he gained two. So I didn't travel much with him, I couldn't take it.

FUCHS: In the 1934 campaign, which was his first campaign for senator, did you travel some with him that year?

EVANS: Twice, I think. I made two trips with him. Once I remember being up in the northern part of Missouri, and once down in the south. But they were just day trips out of Independence.

FUCHS: Then in the '40 you traveled a little more. Did you go with him in his car with him driving, as you recall?

EVANS: Yes.

FUCHS: I understand that Fred Canfil drove him some

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in that campaign or was that just in the '34 campaign?

EVANS: Well, I think it was '40.

FUCHS: Do you recall what kind of a car Mr. Truman was driving in that campaign?

EVANS: It seems to me it was a Dodge then, the same as he's driving now.

FUCHS: After Mr. Truman was nominated in the primary, there was a celebration or two in Independence or Kansas City. Do you recall anything about that?

EVANS: Well, you're talking about '40?

FUCHS: 1940.

EVANS: I don't believe in '40 there was much of a celebration, because it was late in the morning before it was determined that he had won that nomination. Now in '34, there was a celebration down on 12th Street.

FUCHS: Was there some sort of a get-together at

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Thice's in 1940, a day or so later?

EVANS: Out at the lake?

FUCHS: What lake was that?

EVANS: Tap...what lake is that?

FUCHS: Tapawingo. Who was Thice?

EVANS: Yes, I was there, but I didn't realize that was '40. That wasn't that night, it was a few days later. He had a big place. That's the first time I've thought of that. Thice had a lovely nice home out on the lake--it wasn't Tapawingo. What's the other lake?

FUCHS: Lotawana.

EVANS: Lotawana. I'm pretty sure it was Lotawana.

FUCHS: Was this Frank Thice?

EVANS: No, Frank Thice you're thinking of in Kansas City is the grain man.

FUCHS: Who is this Thice?

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EVANS: Well, this is the [John F] Thice that has a position, or did have a position with the city or the county in Independence for years--a great friend of Mr. Truman's. Yes, there was a large crowd there; I remember it very well; I guess, at least fifty people.

FUCHS: He was a county employee and also a political worker and a friend of Mr. Truman.

EVANS: More than that. I think--he was not highway engineer, but maybe he was--something to do with the city, he was quite high up; he had a good job--a political job. I can see him, but I don't know just what it was. It was out in Independence. Now whether it was the city--wasn't he a councilman, Jim?

FUCHS: I'm not familiar with him. I've seen the name and I just don't recall.

EVANS: I'd forgotten all about that, but to me that was probably the following Saturday night--that

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party. And Mrs. Evans went with me (there were ladies there) and there must have been a hundred people--fifty men. I'd forgotten all about it.

FUCHS: He just happened to be the friend who threw the party or held the party in his place? You don't recall him having any particular part in the campaign?

EVANS: No. I'm sure he helped him because he was a good friend.

FUCHS: Coming down then to 1941 when Mr. Truman went into his second term, and was a senator "in his own right," as some have said. Early that year, he went before Congress and presented a resolution that a committee be set up to investigate the war program, which you know. Did he ever talk to you about that prior to his actually presenting the resolution, which was on February 10, 1914? It was approved on March 1, 1941.

EVANS: To a degree he talked to me, more, I think,

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to carry on a conversation than anything else; but I recall--and this probably happened in the campaign when we were together in '40 or at least shortly thereafter, that there was--I'm now trying to quote what I remember his saying: "Well, something should be done to keep the rich from getting richer by contracts on this cost plus ten percent as they did in World War I and turned out inferior equipment because they were only interested in making money," and that he wanted to "get something done so that it could be investigated and prevented when it was going on, instead of eight or ten years after it was done, when it was too late." And I remember him saying to me, that "this isn't only money, but there's American boys' lives at stake in this thing. And it needs a watchdog committee and one that is non-partisan and I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to introduce a resolution."

Now that was more just, you know, conversation.

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FUCHS: Yes. Did you have knowledge of him driving around to the camps in any of the states? Do you recall him doing that?

EVANS: Yes, I recall him going to a number of the camps, but it seems to me what I recall more than anything was after the committee had been appointed. Now whether he did much before that, I'm confused, because, of course, he did an awful lot of traveling all over.

FUCHS: Yes. Well, there is a story that he jumped in his car and drove a big circle through Army camps under construction, some 30,000 miles. I thought you might well know if he took such an extensive trip. Of course, you were busy and he was in Washington and it's possible that you wouldn't have known.

EVANS: I couldn't say he did or he didn't. It sounds like him because he sure drove all to hell and gone before he built that courthouse, looking at courthouses. So that sounds like him, but I

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couldn't honestly say from my own knowledge that he did.

FUCHS: Did you know Millie Dryden, who was a secretary to Mr. Truman?

EVANS: Oh, yes, I knew her. Yes, I knew her very well. I'd see her a lot in the office in Washington.

FUCHS: She was from Kansas City then?

EVANS: Lee's Summit, I believe, if I remember right.

FUCHS: Did you know her here, before she went with Mr. Truman?

EVANS: Just barely knew her.

FUCHS: Vaughan, of course, worked as treasurer in the '40 campaign. Did you know Harry Vaughan before that?

EVANS: Yes, I had met Harry and it seems to me--but I must be confused on that--that I met him in his

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office, but he was still in the army. Apparently that couldn't be. Was he in the Regular army?

FUCHS: He was a reservist. Then he left Mr. Truman in January of '42.

EVANS: That's when he went back in the service.

FUCHS: Yes, he went back in the service.

EVANS: It seems to me like in '39, that he was wearing an army uniform. Now it might have been when I first met him, but of course, that could have been, maybe, a training period.

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: He was in the office, I guess, in '39; Vic was secretary wasn't he?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: It seems to me that Harry Vaughan was working in the office.

FUCHS: Well, I don't know, I thought Vaughan replaced

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him as secretary in 1941.

EVANS: But I think he was working in the office. And it seems to me that in 1939 he was wearing an army uniform, but that could be a reserve uniform. And I never checked it with Harry to find out why; I wasn't interested.

FUCHS: Are there any other things that you remember about that period shortly after Mr. Truman was re-elected as senator?

EVANS: No, other than after he got his resolution introduced, the committee was formed and he was made chairman of it. I know that there was a lot of worries on the part of a lot of people that would contact me to see how bad this fellow Truman was going to be with them--contractors, builders, what-have-you, and I just had one answer for them, more or less laughing without them knowing it: "Well, if you haven't done anything wrong, you won't have any trouble; but if you've done something

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wrong, brother, you're in for it, I'll tell you that."

I was so much interested in his "watchdog committee" (as I call it) for the reason that in World War I, I was stationed in the chemical warfare department in Nitro, West Virginia, where it was a munitions factory and in the branch I was in, was making and concocting gases. They started out as a very small place in Nitro, West Virginia. Thompson-Sterrett, a large construction company, was building the camp there. I think that's a nationally known company--I think they're still in busines--Thompson-Sterrett. And they got orders to make it about ten times larger and there was about 15,000 of us stationed there. Outside of us who were actually in the chemical warfare department, the rest of them worked for Thompson-Sterrett, not the Government. They were on a cost plus ten percent basis. I never saw money wasted so much and so fast. The camp was a sea of mud. They had fine, brand new automobiles for the (I

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called them) straw bosses to drive. When one of them got stuck in the mud, they'd just leave it; call the garage, and get another one; it might sit there for--don't seem possible--for a month, because the more money they spent, the more money the contractors made. It was cost plus ten percent. When Mr. Truman was talking to me, in making conversation before his committee was appointed, that hit a responsive chord because I was just sick of the tens of millions of dollars that were spent there and the same thing was true all over the country. The more they spent, the more money they made. (So, that's the kind of business I'd like to run, because I could do a good job of it!) But it was terrible.

And then, when we talked about building the Harry S. Truman Library in Independence, after the money was raised and his term was over, Mr. Harry Massman, a great builder-contractor-river worker, here in Kansas City, said he'd like to be able to do something for the President; and that he would

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like to form a joint venture with Mr. Patti, another contractor and build the building at absolutely no profit. He just wanted to do it for Mr. Truman. He tells this story often about how Mr. Truman investigated him in his building.

Mr. Massman built a number of war plants. He built one for ninety-odd million dollars down in St. Louis. He said, "I'll say one thing for the boss; he certainly checked every corner and everything..."

"I'll say one thing, I never found anything wrong, but I sure was looking for it."

Well, he did. And he worked day and night on it.

Getting back to the committee, like when he called me and wanted me to come to Chicago to keep him from becoming Vice President, I said, "Don't kid me, anybody wants to be Vice President if he can. You know who I am; don't kid me."

"Well," he said, "the greatest thing I've had in life was to get this committee and head it,

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because I feel that I saved 250,000 American boys' lives in my committee, to say nothing of billions of dollars in expenses."

And I'm sure he did. And, of course, in my opinion, that's what made him.

He said, "That's what I want to continue to do. As Vice President, you can't do anything."

FUCHS: Mr. Massman evidently thought he was very fair. Did Massman come to you or to the Library Corporation and propose that he do something or was he asked?

EVANS: Oh, no, Mr. Massman, as I recall it, called me. Mr. Truman's office was here in Kansas City, after he had come back from the White House, in the Federal Reserve bank building, and I had lunch with him, almost every day--very rarely did I fail. We ate with a group of men where Mr. Massman ate. We used to talk about this Library, that would be the topic of conversation, and raising money, and Dave Lloyd was working, and he said, "Well, when you get ready to build this thing, by golly,

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I'll get Sebastian Patti and myself and we'll build the thing without any profit." And he did.

FUCHS: I'll take up the Library more extensively later, but I wanted to ask that while I was thinking of it.

There's a letter in Mr. Truman's senatorial file, in which Mr. Truman wrote this gentleman in 1942 and said that he was worried about the future of the Democratic Party in Missouri. Do you know what he might have been thinking of, what the situation would have been that was concerning him at that time?

EVANS: Well, I can't think of a number of things that probably were concerning him at that time. I suspect, and that's all I can say, is suspect, but we have often talked about it. Jim Pendergast, who was his friend, and they were overseas together (you know that), and who tried to carry on for his uncle Tom after he went to prison; and was a good friend of mine--remember that

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Jim's father, is the man that I told you about giving me the pass to the Kansas City Blues baseball game because I was a Pendergast Goat Democrat about ten years old? My folks lived across the street from Mike Pendergast--Jim's father--and Jim's just a year older than I am. So I've known Jim, and we knew his brothers and the family intimately. There's one thing that nobody can deny about T. J. Pendergast, and that was that when he told you he would do something, hell and high water couldn't change his mind. His word was his bond; he was known by even his enemies, that he would not break his word. Well, I think the one thing that bothered Mr. Truman, probably along about that time, was, and I'm guessing the fact, that it turned out that Jim's word was never any good. Unfortunately, Jim drank a tremendous amount of liquor in those days, and that worried Mr. Truman and it worried me. For instance, Mr. Truman went on with him as long as he could, but after he was President he called me and (he was in

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Kansas City and I'm talking about President Truman) he said he wanted to see Jim and to have him come to the penthouse at the Muehlebach tomorrow morning; and I made an appointment for ten o'clock and Jim showed up at two. You don't do that with the President of the United States. His word was just absolutely no good. I think, as senator, in '42, and after having served about eight years, at that time, in the Senate, he was getting a lot of complaints from a lot of people that Jim's word was no good and it was hurting the Democratic Party.

And I think he was also tremendously worried about--well, what shall I say, racketeers getting into organized labor and into the political picture, too. Of course, I don't know whether that was the year, but it got so--and it's almost true today--that there's so many factions of the Democratic Party, you can't tell who's doing what. So I suspect that was what he meant, that's only a guess.

FUCHS: He was probably thinking of the Kansas City

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aspect of the Democratic Party, but relating that to the state as a whole?

EVANS: Mainly to Jackson County. Was that letter addressed to someone in this section of the country, as you recall?

FUCHS: I couldn't tell you.

EVANS: It don't make any difference, but I'm sure that's what he was talking about.

FUCHS: I believe it was to a Mr. Newell, but I don't recall right now.

EVANS: I would think he was relating to our Democratic organization in Jackson County, Missouri. You wondered if he meant the national picture?

FUCHS: No, he said about the future of the Democratic party in Missouri, and I wondered what he might have reference to, if there was some particular thing that you recall that was occurring at that time disrupting the party lines and organization.

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It very well could be what you say.

There was also some indication that some people felt that Mr. Truman should be taking, as a senator in '42, a more active role in politics here in the area or else appoint somebody to, which again might be related to the Pendergast situation.

EVANS: I'll say this. If anybody thought he ought to take a more active interest, they didn't know what he was doing because by then he was working day and night on that committee.

FUCHS: You think he was doing about all he could back here?

EVANS: He was doing much more than the average man could possibly do, because he was working day and night, and traveling all over and holding these hearings, and having investigations and then following through on it, was a gigantic job.

FUCHS: I gather what this person had in mind was

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that he should have been a little more active as a leader in Jackson County, even though he was in the Senate, to keep his hand in things back here. Of course, I'm not certain that he felt that was his role as a United States Senator.

EVANS: It's awful easy for people to try to expect more from somebody.

FUCHS: Certainly.

I saw a letter, which incidentally was written to Berenstein in 1943 that was signed by a B. Williams, clerk to Harry S. Truman. Do you know who that was?

EVANS: B. Williams--from Washington?

FUCHS: Yes, from his senatorial office, apparently.

EVANS: No, I sure don't.

FUCHS: Bill Boyle was, by at least April of ‘43, secretary to Senator Truman. Can you give me a little run-down on Boyle, your knowledge of

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Boyle's relationship with Mr. Truman before?

EVANS: Well, Bill Boyle was just about like I was, I mean he was a Democrat and active here in Kansas City.

FUCHS: Was he a lawyer?

EVANS: Yes, he was a lawyer, and, incidentally, I think Bill had a twin brother, didn't he? I'm sure it was a twin, but it always frightens me because Russell, who was a lawyer in the prosecuting attorney's office--Bill was a big man about my size and would weigh close to 200 pounds and Russell was a man about your size--would weigh--about what, 160?

FUCHS: About 145.

EVANS: Well, about the same, it's funny that they were twins. Where I first knew Bill (I don't remember when), he was secretary to the Board of Police Commissioners, here in Kansas City, Missouri, I think that's the right term, and I'm sure that was

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a political appointment job. Then Russell for years, as I say, was in the prosecuting attorney's office and Bill just grew up in politics, and being a lawyer, I think, if I express it right, had more time to devote to politics because it was usually more profitable to a lawyer, than it would for a guy running a drugstore, and he had more time. I just saw Bill around in politics for years and years. I was trying to think when he was police commissioner, but I can't tie anything in to make the year.

FUCHS: You don't recall how he happened to become secretary to Mr. Truman? What brought that about?

EVANS: No. I really don't. That was in '42, wasn't it?

FUCHS: I believe that's right. He probably replaced Vaughan as Vaughan had replaced Messall.

EVANS: I don't know how it happened, but I know that Mr. Truman knew him and he did quite a lot of work

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for the National Committee in Washington. I think Bill was one of the men that was active in this Missouri congressional meetings that I spoke to you about. We used to try to have them once a month, and that's where I think he got more intimately acquainted with him. Probably Mr. Truman thought he could do a good job, and I guess he did. Incidentally, is Bill still alive?

FUCHS: I believe he's dead now.

EVANS: I think sometime within the last year.

FUCHS: What was the earliest mention of HST as vice presidential candidate that you recall?

EVANS: As I recall, we were having lunch in the 822 Club, which is in the Kansas City Club, and which was the group where he and I usually ate our lunch. It was, oh, I would say, at least 90 days and maybe 120 days before the convention in Chicago. There were political stories being written by writers from all sections of the country. And in some magazine

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(I don't know whether it was the Saturday Evening Post or something), we were eating lunch and somebody handed him this magazine, and that was the first that I knew--now maybe he knew, but that's the first that I knew. In this story, this writer whom I don't even remember who it was, said words to this effect:

"Don't overlook Harry Truman, senator from Missouri, who did a remarkable job with his committee and who has brought in (and I'm going by memory now), so many reports on matters that could be highly controversial and every one of them has been unanimous by Democrats and Republicans alike. Don't fail to watch him as a dark horse for a running mate for FDR."

He got a big kick out of it. I think it was the first he'd seen it. That was really the first time.

FUCHS: That's the first public mention that you recall?

EVANS: It was the first public mention that I recall. Now there may have been others.

FUCHS: Well, I have reference to a letter from an Ed Meissner, president of a St. Louis Car Company,

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who, in a letter of November 3, 1943, asked Mr. Truman if he would be at all interested in being mentioned for Vice President, and, of course, Mr. Truman replied that he only wanted to be a U.S. senator. That's what made me bring the matter up.

EVANS: Well, was Eddie Meissner one of his boys that was in the battery?

FUCHS: There's an Eddie Meisburger here in Kansas City, you might have reference to.

EVANS: Yes, I don't know Ed Meissner.