Oral History Interview with
Rufus B. Burrus
Longtime friend and legal counselor to
Harry S. Truman; assistant county counselor, 1927-41; member, U.S. Army
Reserve, 1927-75; officer in U.S. Army in World War II; attorney in private
practice, 1921 to present.
Independence, Missouri
November 8, 1985
by Niel M. Johnson
[Notices and Restrictions | Interview
Transcript | Additional Burrus Oral History
Transcripts]
Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry
S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee
but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember
that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written
word.
Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.
RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced
for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission
of the Harry S. Truman Library.
Opened December 1986
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri
[Top of the Page | Notices
and Restrictions | Interview Transcript
| Additional Burrus Oral History Transcripts]
Oral History Interview with Rufus B. Burrus
Independence, Missouri
November 8, 1985
by Niel M. Johnson
[137]
JOHNSON: In the first interview we had gotten into the Presidential period.
But I do want to back up and ask some questions from an earlier period
again, based on some of the statements that were published in articles
in the Sunday supplement of the Kansas City Star, an article by
Richard Miller, on the Judgeship period of Truman's career. I will start
with a trivial question. There is mention of a cousin "Snapper." Do you
know who this person is?
BURRUS: That was General Ralph Truman. He was a major general, and 35th
Division commander.
JOHNSON: In answer to this question you might refer to a letter that
you wrote to the Kansas City Star in June 1984. There was a statement
in an article by Richard Miller, published May 6, 1984, stating that Judge
Truman appointed two justices of the peace while the other judges were
out of the courtroom. I know that you have responded to that in writing.
Does that spell out pretty well your answer to that question?
[138]
BURRUS: Yes sir. Mr. Truman couldn't do anything by himself because
it was required that they had to have at least two of the three judges
for a quorum. The Eastern Judge and the Western Judge would be the other
two. So one of them wouldn't be enough. The Clerk of the Court was very
careful. Eddie Becker was his name; he was deputy court clerk and each
time he had an item to be put in the journal of the court, or the minutes
of the court, he wanted something definitive of at least two of the judges
who had to approve it. He was very meticulous about that and careful and
he never, as I ever knew, ever let anything go through that wasn't with
the consent of at least two of them. When Mr. Truman was Presiding Judge
and one of the other judges was gone, he had the right to cast his vote,
but he'd have to have the record show that the other one either was present
and didn't vote, or present and did vote, whatever it was. So he just
couldn't have done it by himself, that's all. He never wanted to do anything
by himself.
JOHNSON: Mr. Miller refers to Truman as one of the "triumvirate" under
Boss Pendergast. Have you ever heard
[139] that term used before, along with
McElroy and Lazia?
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: Miller does credit Truman with honest administration of the
bond issues. He mentions that "although Truman saved the bond money from
Pendergast theft, the boss used Eastern Judge [Robert] Barr to siphon
the regular revenues." Were there problems here in connection with Judge
Barr? I think Mr. Truman may have been critical, in some of his memos
to himself, of Judge Barr.
BURRUS: Have you ever seen those notes that this fellow refers to that
Truman wrote?
JOHNSON: Yes, some of them. Mr. Miller also says that "Truman's private
admission that he permitted in competent hacks to collect paychecks and
purchase goods at excessive prices is in stark contrast to every public
statement that he ever made on the topic."
In general terms, would it appear likely that Mr. Truman did have to
accept a certain amount of, let's say, incorrect conduct, in order to
get bigger things done; in other words, to accept a lesser evil in order to
[140] prevent a greater evil?
BURRUS: I don't think so. I expect that maybe someplace along the line,
maybe either the Eastern or the Western Judge had some particular person
that they wanted to have something done for and if the two agreed upon
it, they could outvote Mr. Truman, the Presiding Judge. But if anything
like that occurred, we wouldn't call it theft, or illegal or anything
of that kind. It would be what they had the right to do.
Also, you see, in later times, Barr joined with Spencer Salisbury, Arthur
Mesker, and some others that were critical of Truman. As a matter of fact,
they didn't support Mr. Truman for the Senate, but they supported another
fellow for that office openly.
JOHNSON: Was it [Tuck] Milligan?
BURRUS: Milligan.
JOHNSON: So there was a little friction or possibly even a little bad
blood eventually between the two? Between Barr and Truman?
BURRUS: That's right. One of the persons that I'm sure
[141] influenced Barr
and Salisbury and Mesker was Senator Bennett Clark, especially in regard
to some monies that were being used to refinance homes and houses and
the like. They worked through him and they were trying to repay him I'm
sure, even though it had to be something that would be not in accordance
with what Mr. Truman would have done, or wanted to do. That would be the
only reason I can think of that that would ever happen, if it did ever
happen. But it wasn't something that Truman had to do with except that
they probably did things on the outside that Truman disagreed with. They
were giving their allegiance not to Truman for his nomination but to the
other gentleman.
JOHNSON: There's mention, too, about this incident in 1930 when a man
appeared at Margaret's school, apparently with the intent to kidnap her.
Was that your interpretation, that this might have been an attempt, or
probably was an attempt, to kidnap Margaret Truman?
BURRUS: Of course Margaret had been in my sister's class too. At that
particular time, the teacher lived across the street from where my father
did. Kelley was her name. Madelyn was her first name. She knew the
[142] family
and she knew what might happen. That's what alerted her to find out what
was the reason they would send for Margaret. She delayed it, and having
done so whoever was there finally left without letting anything more happen.
She just explained that to the police officers, and nothing more is known
about it.
JOHNSON: They never identified the person apparently that showed up at
the school.
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: And that was at Bryant School?
BURRUS: Bryant School, yes. My sister was on the staff out there too.
Helen was her name.
JOHNSON: Was she unmarried?
BURRUS: Oh yes, she never married. She passed away a few years ago. She
was the principal of the school at that time, after she had been a teacher
at Bryant School.
JOHNSON: There is also mention of an incident involving Sheriff [Thomas]
Bash where he came upon an apparent assassination,
[143] and he ended up in
a gunfight that killed two criminals and captured a third one, [Charles]
Gargotta. Then a statement is made that after what seemed to be a very
heroic action by the sheriff, Truman cut Bash's budget and he was silent
about the crime. He apparently did not publicly congratulate Sheriff Bash.
What's your reaction to that?
BURRUS: If anything in his budget was cut, there was some good reason
for it, to keep the budget of the sheriff within the confines of the money
that would be available and apportioned to him. That would be the only
reason Truman would do that. He wouldn't do it for any personal reason
such as this author would attribute to him.
JOHNSON: Do you remember Truman ever saying anything about Sheriff Bash
or indicating his attitude toward Sheriff Bash? He was a judge before
he was a sheriff wasn't he?
BURRUS: Yes, he was a county judge. He was a Rabbit Democrat, the other
faction. But he never had any public encounter with him, that I ever knew
about, or treated him ignominiously. After all, Bash was another
[144] public
officer and Truman wouldn't have done that either privately or publicly.
JOHNSON: Did he ever tell you privately whether he liked or disliked
Mr. Bash?
BURRUS: No. Another thing is that Bash was a confidant of Dr. Johnson
who had been an active Democrat in Kansas City. And his brother, they
called him "Tiny" [Clark] Johnson, was the court sheriff of the county.
So anything that ever happened would have been picked up by Johnson, who
was always present when the court was in session. He would be the one
who might report such things.
I remember one incident that relates to this. There was a gentleman that
had been a contractor who had done some county road work during the time
of the "pie crust" roads. He wanted to get a contract on some roads, and
he kept insisting on it to Truman. Truman wouldn't encourage him. He told
him that he wouldn't give a bid that would be approved, but if he did
he would have to do the work that was provided for under the instructions
of Stayton and Veatch.
Well, Truman had occasion to want to open a quarry
[145] at Blue Springs. Those
in charge of the roads wanted to open up a crusher, so they could have
rock that could be sold from out there to use on the roads, with out having
to haul it from Independence or Kansas City. Well, that decision was made,
and the same gentleman wanted to make a bid on that contract. He did;
he bid it really low. Mr. Truman told Bill Spann, who was a deputy with
Stayton and Veatch, and me, "Now, I want you to have a contract and specifications
that are proper and right, that he can be held to. I know he isn't going
to do what he's supposed to do and he's going to want to have extra money
when he shouldn't have it." He said, "Now, I want you to make it so that
can't happen." So I helped Spann, and we made the specifications and we
had it written out plain and good. It was submitted to him. He signed
the bid and the contract to do the job. Well, when he got his first claim
in for money upon that job, he certified for solid rock when at best it
was only loose rock, and he put loose rock in the record when it wasn't
anything except earth or dirt.
Well, when they checked the claim they refused to honor it and sent it
back to him, and told him why.
[146] The gentleman came into the county court
one morning early, in Independence. The two judges were there, and Truman
was writing his name on various vouchers that had to be ready to be acted
on. And he came in and snarled about his not getting paid. He had given
evidence as having had something to drink and he wasn't very gracious
or circumspect with what he said. Truman said to him--his name was John
Pryor--"Now, John, you've stuck your nose in here and I've heard all I
want to hear. It's done. Now you get out, and that's all that will happen
to you." And he snarled back something to Truman and Truman said, "Tiny,
kindly show the gentleman out." Tiny was the sheriff's deputy; he was
a big 6'4" or 6'5" fellow and weighed 200 and some odd pounds. He came
up behind him, and grabbed his collar with the left hand and his belt
with the other hand and pushed him out the door, literally pushed him
out. That's how Mr. Truman disposed of him; he said, "Show the gentleman
out," and that's what he did.
Afterwards Pryor knew he wasn't going to be able to get what he wanted,
so he turned it over to his superintendent. His superintendent was a gentleman,
[147]
And they got together with him and allowed them only what they should
have. Pryor never did get over being shoved out of the courtroom; and
he never came back either.
JOHNSON: That kind of fits in with the stories we have about how he handled
those contracts.
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Mr. Miller also implies that Truman was critical of Judge [James]
Page for the wrong reasons. He says that Truman tried to sabotage Page's
crusade against criminals within the Pendergast machine, although Page
himself was a Pendergast appointee. I guess his main charge here is that
Truman was publicly silent again, according to Miller; that is, Truman
did not come out publicly and support this so-called crusade of Judge
Page. Do you recall anything about this "crusade" against some of the
Pendergast people?
BURRUS: No, I never did.
JOHNSON: Did you know Judge Page very well? Do you recall anything about
his personality?
[148] BURRUS: Yes, I knew him.
JOHNSON: What kind of a person was he?
BURRUS: Well, he was sort of a narrow-minded fellow. He was not one you
could get along with with ease. So I never did try to do anything with
him, just did the things that had to be done. I would pass along messages
with the things that had to be delivered to him.
Mr. Truman had the right as Presiding Judge, and with the help of other
folks on the board of the county that apportioned the money out and made
the budget, to budget each county officer. It was up to them to decide
how many deputies they might have, but the law also prescribed the dollar
amount that could be budgeted for each class of employees, and they couldn't
exceed that class for that particular person.
JOHNSON: Apparently it is correct that Mr. Truman would not speak out
criticizing Pendergast when something shady was revealed in the press.
Do you think there's much substance to this charge that Harry Truman did
not criticize Pendergast perhaps when he should have, at
[149] least not in
public, and if he didn't say anything negative about Boss Pendergast in
public, can you account for the reasons why he was silent?
BURRUS: I don't think there was any reason for Mr. Truman to make any
remarks about what had happened so far as Pendergast was concerned. As
far as Truman was concerned, that was something that did not involve the
court, so he didn't have any reason to make any statements about it.
Mr. Truman set out in his Memoirs the things he did as county
judge and the relationship with Mr. Pendergast and with other folks, for
some 20 odd pages. After all, Mr. Truman wrote the Memoirs and
he's more capable of saying what happened during his administration. Mr.
Miller never talked with me, he never talked with anybody that I know
of that had anything to do with Mr. Truman. He just seems to be grabbing
something out of a newspaper once in a while, which is out of context
probably, without any real support.
JOHNSON: I suppose you did meet Tom Pendergast on occasion. Do you have
some recollections of his demeanor, what
[150] kind of person he seemed to be?
BURRUS: I recollect that I had two occasions to see him personally. One
of them was when somebody that was working for the county--not the person
himself but one of the members of the family--said, "I wish that you would
go to Mr. Pendergast and tell him that you know about so and so who is
a Democrat and has always been loyal to Mr. Pendergast's faction."
I said, "Well, I'll be glad to do that if you think it will do any good
at all."
One morning I went down to 1908 Main Street and told him. He said, "You
tell so and so they don't have to make any apologies to me about that.
I know that that fellow was all right and that he never did anything wrong.
So you go back and tell them that you delivered the message, and that's
how it is."
And I did see him one other time. I think that was outside of his office
where he had been in some public place, but I didn't have any words with
him. So that's my contact with him.
JOHNSON: So you met him only once in his own office.
[151] BURRUS: That's right. That's the only time.
JOHNSON: Do you remember anybody else that was there at that time? There
were just the two of you?
BURRUS: I went by myself. As a matter of fact, I knew that the time he
got there was sometime after 7 or 8 o'clock, and they always said if you
want to see him, see him at that time of the morning, because he's got
time to see the folks he wants to. If you go later, sometimes he's not
there. He did get to his office early, so I was told.
JOHNSON: So you got there kind of early. About what year would that have
been do you think?
BURRUS: Oh, I would say that it was probably in the '30s, early '30s,
I think.
JOHNSON: Also there's a comment that Truman "gerrymandered" the Fourth
District in 1933 to guarantee him an easy if he would have run for Congress
in '34. There was a redistricting in that year wasn't there?
BURRUS: Yes. The district increased in population, as
[152] had Kansas City.
This Fourth District was made up of part of Kansas City and part out-state,
not only Jackson County but some of the adjoining counties. I wouldn't
call it gerrymandering, because after all, that had to be done with the
legislature of the state and also with the help of the Federal folks that
had to do with the congressional districts. If Mr. Truman had anything
to do with that I didn't know it. He may have, because I do know that
he at one time said that he would probably fix it up so he could be retired
as a legislator from the district. He then says like the gentleman that
ran from Texas and became Vice President, John Garner, said, "You get
in a position that you don't have to get out and campaign because you've
got yourself in a good Democrat area and you could go in and do what you
want to do. That would be one that I would like to have, so that I wouldn't
have to go out and campaign."
JOHNSON: "Gerrymandering" implies that there are areas identifiable as
pro-Truman or at least, I guess, pro Goat faction.
[153] BURRUS: Pro-Democrats.
JOHNSON: Although the whole area is Democrat.
BURRUS: Well, no, it wasn't either, because there were some Republicans
in the area.
JOHNSON: Okay, so this would have meant putting Republicans in another
district possibly, is that the idea? Did you have anything to do at all
with that redistricting?
BURRUS: No, I didn't have anything to do with it. I knew about it but
I didn't have anything to do with it.
JOHNSON: They added another district, is that right?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: They added another district, and then had to redraw the lines
of existing districts.
BURRUS: That's because the state population had increased and, therefore,
they were entitled to one more district to represent the population.
JOHNSON: That was quite an election, the city election in 1934. There
were two or three murders and some
[154] intimidation of voters. There apparently
was a faction, more or less called the "uplifters," at least that's the
term used in the article. They were the group that was trying to reform
or clean up city politics back in '34, and Mr. Miller claims that Harry
Truman did not support the "uplifters," so-called. Do you remember that
term being used, "uplifters?"
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: Or Truman taking any sides in that city election in 1934?
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: Johnnie Lazia was murdered wasn't he in that election?
BURRUS: That was something that was clear out of anything that Truman
would have any knowledge about, or have anything to do with or have any
way to guard against, or be in favor of it or anything else about it.
It's just something he would happen to know about when we read it in the
paper.
[155]
JOHNSON: Do you remember Harry Truman ever saying anything about that
election, that 1934 election which was rather violent?
BURRUS: No. He always abhorred violence but I never heard him say anything
that I can remember or had any reason to mention it particularly.
JOHNSON: Now we will go on to some of the questions that come out of
your own correspondence; this is the correspondence between 1939 and 1945
that we have in our files. In May 1939 you refer to what you call a "mess"
in the county organization. You said, "There is no cooperation in cleaning
up the payroll that we should have." This is in a letter to Mr. Truman
that you wrote in May 1939. You said, "[Lester] Byam is doing his best
to see things go right but he is getting little or no help from the other
two judges." And then you almost plead with Mr. Truman to come home to
save something "out of the wreck." I suppose this is right in the aftermath
of the conviction of Mr. Pendergast, Boss Pendergast.
BURRUS: That's right. Byam was a judge and he had also
[156] been a county
road man under Truman. He was one of Mr. Truman's friends, and so that's
what I had mentioned about him.
JOHNSON: Was he one of the more able judges, the most able judge as far
as you were concerned, back there in '39?
BURRUS: That's right. That's after Truman was out of office.
JOHNSON: Yes, and after the conviction of Pendergast, which threw the
organization into disarray, I suppose. Did Jim Pendergast take over the
organization after Tom Pendergast was convicted?
BURRUS: I think it fell to him to do it, and he's probably the one that
did it. I never had any reason to be in contact with him, to see what
he was doing. But I think that's what generally the folks considered him
to be, the one who took over from his Uncle Tom.
JOHNSON: How about Byam? Did he remain in office?
BURRUS: Byam stayed along with us too.
[157]
JOHNSON: Was he a supporter of Truman throughout those years?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Do you recall if Senator Truman was ever able to come back to
help get the organization back in shape, or did he take a hands-off kind
of attitude?
BURRUS: I think he didn't take any part in it because after all he was
busy as a Senator and had plenty to do there. That didn't give him the
opportunity to come back here and get into the politics of the factions.
JOHNSON: In spite of your request, he stayed in Washington as far as
you recall?
BURRUS: That's right. I just.. wanted him to know about it--just give
information to him.
JOHNSON: In 1940, when we have another campaign for nomination and election
for the Senate, you apparently were involved in plotting strategy for
that campaign.
[158]
This is in April 1940 that you wrote a letter to Mr. Truman, and you
refer to the unpopularity of "Lloyd Crow" --apparently that is Lloyd Stark;
you referred to a rumor that Truman would withdraw and the "Rabbits and
the 15th Street boys will be for [Maurice] Milligan." That was one of
the rumors about what might happen. The 15th Street boys . . .
BURRUS: That's Cass Welch's faction. Casimer Welch. He was a justice
of the peace and he was a leader in that particular area. He had an office
on 15th and I think he lived within that district. At least he had this
residence within that district. He may not have lived there all the time.
JOHNSON: This was the pro-Milligan faction?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Were they still referred to as the Rabbits?
BURRUS: They were the Rabbits.
JOHNSON: They still have those two names, the Rabbits and Goats?
[159] BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: You said that Truman should start "counter propaganda," and
then you mention that Bennett Clark encouraged Milligan to enter the race
to humble Stark. Quoting from your letter, you said, "After he has seen
how little support Stark had, he will either call off Milligan or give
you this whole-hearted support. Clark will appease Milligan by getting
him onto the Attorney General's staff in Washington."
There was a three-man race going on. There were Milligan, Stark and Truman,
and the fact that Milligan and Stark were both in the race did split the
opposition to some extent, and did help Truman get nominated. Isn't that
the way you see it?
BURRUS: I expect it had some effect on it.
JOHNSON: What do you recall about your part in that 1940 senatorial campaign?
BURRUS: When Mr. Truman came back from the Senate to get into the campaign,
I met him with some other folks from up here in Northwest Missouri. It
was in the
[160]
summertime in June, when they had a recess. He had his clothes
in a suitcase, and he said, "If you folks could take time to get some
shirts out of my bag here and see to it we get them laundered, so I can
get them within a little while. I would like to have some fresh shirts
when I get back." He said, "I've got a suit of clothes I've been wearing,
and these need to be pressed and I've got one in that bag that needs to
be pressed. If you can find some way that you can do that." He said, "I
hope all of you've got money to pay for all of that and also to pay for
my lunches and meals and for the gasoline, because I'm just plain out
of funds." That's the way he put it, and he was.
All of us did see to it that all those things happened for him, and we
made it comfortable for him. He made stops at different places that had
been arranged. This fellow Kitchen wrote a letter. Someone had found his
name in the files here.
JOHNSON: What's the name?
BURRUS: [William] Kitchen. He was a Democrat and a worker
[161] for the Democrats,
and also a friend of Truman's. He arranged for a lot of these stops way
up in Northwest Missouri, for Truman to stop and have visits with the
people. Some of them were Postmasters and some of them were in stores
and little places along the road. That's what Kitchen had done. I was
along with him when that happened. I spent a couple of days, and finally
got back. Truman got his clothes taken care of and his laundry taken care
of, which was a help to him too. These were personal things for him, that's
all.
JOHNSON: But you also apparently gave at least one speech, if not more
campaign speeches, for Truman.
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Do you have those speeches?
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: Were they extemporaneous?
BURRUS: Extemporaneous, that's right.
JOHNSON: Do you know generally what you would have said?
[162] BURRUS: I asked him one time, "When are
you going to say something for yourself?"
He said, "I'm not going to."
I said, "Well, when are you going to let us do it?"
"Not in my presence, you're not going to." He said, "We're talking about
what the Democrat Party has stood for, and what Mr. Roosevelt has stood
for, and the Democrat program is the thing that we want to stand on."
So when I had an opportunity I did the same thing. There was a Catholic
priest up here in Northwest Missouri. Father Wogan was his name. They
had a picnic that had been set up by him at various times, and he had
all of the various candidates to come in and they'd make a speech.
Well, so I was there I was there in the interest of Mr. Truman and Wogan
knew me and he knew what I was there for. He said, "Come on, I'll give
you the best place on the program." He said, "You don't have to make any
ante for Mr. Truman; you're doing this, and I'm asking you to do it."
So that's how I happened to make that speech. Father Wogan asked me to
do that, and I did it.
[163]
JOHNSON: Was this in Cameron? Or was this in Agency? Apparently you were
in both places. Do you remember where this was, this picnic?
BURRUS: Cameron, I think it was.
JOHNSON: You mention a picnic at Cameron in one of your letters in August
1940.
BURRUS: That's right. They were all close together. Cameron and Agency,
both places are in the same general area.
JOHNSON: Right, because you also mention attending a picnic at Agency,
Missouri and making remarks on behalf of Truman. Is that where this Father
Wogan . . .
BURRUS: I think he had jurisdiction over both of them. When we got to
the other place, again he put me on the podium.
JOHNSON: So you gave speeches both in Cameron and at Agency as you recall?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: You were followed by a couple of other individuals--
[164] William
Kemp who spoke for Governor Clark, and by Dave Thompson on behalf of Milligan.
Did you have any connections with those people at all?
BURRUS: I knew Thompson and Milligan. They were lawyers and Democrats.
But they were being supported against Mr. Truman. And Stark was too.
JOHNSON: Bennett Clark apparently was riding the fence. through most
of the campaign and then sided with Truman at the last minute. Isn't that
the way it went?
BURRUS: I don't think it was at the last minute; I think it was really
after the defeat of Milligan and the other folks that he was supporting.
Clark really was a friendly person, so far as Truman was concerned personally,
but for some reason he had this idea about putting Milligan in.
JOHNSON: Do you have any idea why he promoted, or put Milligan into the
race? Do you think it was designed to help Truman by splitting the opposition?
BURRUS: I don't think so. It may have been. I don't think it was.
[165] JOHNSON: But that's kind of the way it worked.
BURRUS: That's what really happened with it, yes. That's right.
I do know that Mr. Truman had the support of some Democrats that went
up through that part of the country. The State chairman and county chairman,
Jim Aylward, was among those out campaigning for Truman in Northeastern
Missouri. They would stop at the newspapers and enlist their help in favor
of Mr. Truman. They would listen to what they had to say, and then meet
people and get some publicity for him. They did a pretty good job with it.
Even in the area where Stark lived he lost the election. In later times
I was told by Jim Aylward that Senator Clark said to him, "Would you please
tell me how it was that you had the folks on your side in the area there
where Stark lived and you were able to carry the election against him
in that area?" He proceeded to tell the story that they met a newspaper
man who was influential in the area and they told him why they were there
and wanted to know if he could help the Truman campaign. The newspaperman
said, "Well,
[166]
I don't know, but maybe you could help me, and if I get some
help maybe I can help you." He said this in a smiling sort of way. Aylward
asked him what he wanted. He said, "You know the Governor?" Aylward said
that he knew the Governor. "Well, could you use your influence with the
Governor to appoint my nephew to be a probate judge up here? There's a
vacancy, and I'd like him to have him. If you could get him appointed,
I might be able to help."
So they got on the telephone in his presence, got hold of the Governor,
and the Governor said, "What's his name?" They told him. He said, "Yes,
I'll appoint him." And he did appoint him. So Jim Aylward told Clark how
it happened that that turned the tide in favor of Truman, with this fellow
and his newspaper doing it.
JOHNSON: You mention in this letter that you saw a Mr. Dryden?
BURRUS: Yes.
JOHNSON: Do you remember his first name?
BURRUS: L.T. Dryden; he was a lawyer here in Independence.
[167]
JOHNSON: You said you saw him on a Sunday morning and he had spoken for
Truman at Holt in Clay County, at the carnival and you had spoken for
Truman at Weston on Monday evening. You said both at Agency and in Weston,
Congressman Dick Duncan introduced you to the people that were supportive
of Truman. This information indicates you gave speeches for Truman at
Cameron, at Agency, and Weston. Were there any other towns where you gave
talks in favor of Truman?
BURRUS: There may have been. I didn't make long talks. I would just say
that I represented him and that I wanted the folks to be in favor of him.
I would note the things that Mr. Roosevelt had done and that Mr. Truman
approved and helped him have those things done. I would say that Truman
had helped make the Roosevelt administration one that was worthy of all
the Democrats.
JOHNSON: So when you spoke up for Mr. Truman you emphasized the New Deal
program, and how Truman helped it along?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Was there much emphasis in those days on what a
[168] Senator could
do for his folks back home in his state, or was there more emphasis on
national politics and the national interest?
BURRUS: So far as Mr. Truman was concerned, he would not stress what
he particularly did, except to say that he supported the things that Mr.
Roosevelt was in favor of, and helped get over his programs.
JOHNSON: How about projects in Missouri? Would you ever emphasize anything
that was done, let's say on Federal projects that were done in Missouri,
as a result perhaps of the influence of the Senator? That would be kind
of a pork-barrel or log-rolling sort of appeal, but did they ever resort
to that approach?
BURRUS: Mr. Truman never did; and I say he wouldn't permit those, when
he was President, to do anything like that either.
JOHNSON: Were there any particular projects here in Missouri that you
think were directly attributable to Senator Truman's influence?
BURRUS: No, I don't. I don't remember anything like that.
[169]
JOHNSON: How about Ft. Leonard Wood? How far back does that go?
BURRUS: I believe it was made a training camp in 1940. I was down there
as an officer of the Sixth Division in 1941, in April.
JOHNSON: Do you know if Senator Truman had anything to do with that being
set up here in Missouri, that camp, Leonard Wood?
BURRUS: I don't know whether he did or not, but I do know that when I
was there I received some letters from him in which he asked me to check
on what buildings were being built and how they were being built, and
roads, and all that to see if I could see any evidence of any discrepancies.
He wanted to know if the contractors had done what they were supposed
to have done, and to get him back my summary about it.
JOHNSON: What kind of information did you give him?
BURRUS: I said that I could find out nothing except that they were doing
the job, but that they did it rather loosely because they had to do it
in a hurry. I
[170]
suggested that he might have somebody go down there to see
how the monies were spent, because I never had a chance to do that. But
it appeared the job was being done fairly well, and that the post was
one that we would be glad to have and use in that particular area.
JOHNSON: Apparently he did get reports about some gouging, some incorrect
conduct so to speak, being done on some of the contracts at Ft. Leonard
Wood. I think that was entered into the record in the Senate as one of
the reasons for a need for a special committee to investigate the defense
program.
BURRUS: I just reported to him what I had heard and learned about, without
telling it as a fact. I was an officer on the post and I just did it in
a casual sort of way without attracting any attention to it.
JOHNSON: He apparently got letters from a number of people regarding
Ft. Leonard Wood, and many of them were critical about the way it was
being constructed and the amount of monies spent.
[171]
BURRUS: There had been nothing there but great forests and trees and
things of that kind. It didn't have any roads, and the new ones they built
were not properly paved. Those using the roads had their tires all eaten
up on the rocks, and they couldn't get any stamps to get tires which were
rationed at that time. That disabled a lot of folks who had to drive those roads.
JOHNSON: Did you meet Governor Stark? Do you have some opinions or impressions
of him?
BURRUS: No. I've never met him. I knew what he had done and what had
happened to him, and knew that he successfully endeavored to have Mr.
Pendergast endorse him when he wanted to run for Governor. Truman supported
him in that race. Stark also wanted to be head of the American Legion,
and Mr. Truman helped him get that office too.
JOHNSON: Truman didn't appreciate Stark running against him in 1940.
Do you recall any conversation you had with Truman about Stark? Do you
remember his comments, any comments?
[172] BURRUS: Well, smilingly he would say, "Lloyd Crow Stark" and emphasize
the "Crow," because he was always crowing about himself. "Crow" was his
middle name.
JOHNSON: They made him eat crow I suppose after that campaign didn't
they?
What happened to Stark after that campaign? Did he just sort of disappear
from politics?
BURRUS: He got defeated. I was at the state Democrat convention when
he was wanting a prominent place, and the Democrats weren't going to give
it to him. After all, he was the Governor and Stark thought that he ought
to have it. Well, they just left him sitting on the platform, without
anything going on, and any body who wanted to see him could walk up to
him. But he never walked out to anybody. A few people did walk up to speak
to him. In time the Democrats in control more or less concluded that that
wouldn't be a good thing for the Democrats to just completely ignore him
and humiliate him. So they finally came up and did put him in some place
that would not give any promise about anything, but still not put him
in a position of being an ungrateful sort of person that he really
[173] was.
That's how he happened to stay there. But it was nearly the whole doggone
afternoon that he sat there like that. I remember that because I thought
he ought to pick himself up when he saw all this happening, and walk off
and leave them, rather than be humiliated. But he just sat there, until
they finally found a place for him.
JOHNSON: Who do you recall as being perhaps the most important director
of the strategy in the 1940 campaign? Wasn't Messall involved in that
campaign as one of the organizers?
BURRUS: Yes, and also John Snyder from St. Louis. He became Mr. Truman's
friend way back in the '20s. He was a bank examiner and had charge of
some broken banks there. He had helped Mr. Truman get some funds channeled
into the campaign.
JOHNSON: And Mr. Vaughan. Did you know Harry Vaughan very well?
BURRUS: Yes, knew him, way back when I first was taken by Truman to Ft.
Riley, with Snyder and Vaughan.
[174] JOHNSON: What were your first impressions of
Harry Vaughan when you met him at camp?
BURRUS: He was a schoolteacher who taught calisthenics. He did that in
camp too. Well, I learned that he was a man who knew his way about both
the artillery and the Army, and that Mr. Truman approved of him along
with John Snyder.
JOHNSON: The public image of Harry Vaughan was that he was kind of a
carouser and he was always a clown and so on. But the facts seem to be
somewhat different than that. Apparently he did not drink, or drank very
little. As far as his personal habits are concerned, did he seem to be
a pretty straight-down-the-middle sort of person to you?
BURRUS: He taught Sunday School. He was active in his church, and active
in civic affairs. Mr. Truman knew that. He was always a gentleman. I never
knew anyone that if they really told the truth about it ever had any reason
to make any remarks about him that would be uncomplimentary. He was always
in favor of Mr.
[175]
Truman, that was one thing. He was just really one of
Mr. Truman's best rooters, but there wasn't any thing that Vaughan ever
did that was intended to reflect against Truman.
JOHNSON: Was he a good story teller? Was that one of the reasons he became
an aide in the White House?
BURRUS: Yes. We called him the king's jester, because he would make remarks
to help the President get over a serious condition that we might be in.
He would help folks become more willing to get together in one way or
another.
JOHNSON: He was a person who usually did not take things all that seriously?
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: And he played a pretty good game of poker?
BURRUS: He did, I guess. I never played with him. I never played poker
with him at any time, because I didn't know how in the first place. I
didn't want to get into that.
[176]
Some other things about Vaughan. He had been very active at Westminster
College in Fulton, and they were looking for somebody to make an address
there. The college administrators wanted Vaughan to see if he could find
somebody, and so he went to Mr. Truman. Judge [Ernest] Tipton was another
one who was active there. He had been a football coach and football referee,
Tipton had, and he got to be a judge later. They concluded that they ought
to have, if they could, Prime Minister Churchill to make the address at
the school. So they prevailed upon Mr. Truman to get word to the Prime
Minister, and the Prime Minister, so they said, answered back, that he
would come and make an address at Westminster, provided President Truman
accompanied him there and also presented him to the people. Mr. Truman
said that he would be glad to and he did do it. So that's how that happened,
and Vaughan was one of the folks that helped promote it, along with Judge
Tipton.
JOHNSON: Yes, I know that his involvement in the "Iron Curtain" speech
must have been one of the red letter
[177] days in the career of Harry Vaughan.
BURRUS: That's right. And it showed that he had the confidence of the
people in this school too; that's another thing about it. That's a great
institution. It was great and still is.
JOHNSON: Before getting back to the Presidency, I have another question
or two about the period of 1940-41, in regard to the local organization.
When you went into the Army you kind of got away from that too, I suppose,
away from local politics?
BURRUS: I didn't have time, or the chance to do it.
JOHNSON: In January 1941, you wrote a letter to Senator Truman...
BURRUS: That was before I was called to duty in April.
JOHNSON: You mentioned the question of who should give Les advice, Les
being Lester...
BURRUS: Byam.
JOHNSON: Okay, that is Byam. And you said that Roger
[178] was willing and
able to do so, but Les seemed to be "amenable to Jim," that is Jim Pendergast
no doubt. You said Jim had different views, and the question was whether
Les would get and follow the advice of Roger, or would he get and follow
the advice of Jim. Does "Roger" refer to Roger Sermon?
BURRUS: Yes.
JOHNSON: I guess, again, you thought maybe Truman could crack the whip
there or something.
BURRUS: Or make a choice between them, so we'd know.
JOHNSON: Do you recall just who Byam followed, whose advice he eventually
did follow? Was it Pendergast or Sermon?
BURRUS: I think he followed Jim's advice more than he did anybody else,
because Sermon was more interested in elevating himself than anything
else.
JOHNSON: Was Roger Sermon pretty important in local politics at that
time?
BURRUS: Yes. He had been in the Rabbit faction to start
[179] with, but when
Truman got into it he switched over to Truman's leadership and so that's
how that happened. But in time Roger wanted to make himself the top man,
and not take second place.
JOHNSON: He wanted to take over the organization after Boss Pendergast...
BURRUS: In Eastern Jackson County, not from Pendergast, but take over
from the folks that happened to be leaders here in Eastern Jackson County.
Independence was the predominant place for the leaders of Eastern Jackson
County.
JOHNSON: Did he ever become a judge in the County Court?
BURRUS: No. He just was Mayor.
JOHNSON: Do you remember the year he became Mayor?
BURRUS: No, he was still Mayor though, after I came back from overseas
in 1945. He lived across the street from me and I never had any particularly
close relationship with him when he was Mayor and his faction, because
I was with Truman's folks. I didn't always think that
[180] Roger Sermon was
doing things that Truman would want to have done, so I would just stay
clear of him. When I came back after being gone for five years, he lived
across the street and he never came across the street to say hello to
me, or say he was glad to see me, or greet me in any other way. Of course,
I didn't mind, except that it was a little bit unusual for a fellow to
get the cold shoulder. That's what he did, and therefore I had no reason
to do anything to favor Roger Sermon.
Roger Sermon ran for Governor too, you know. He was defeated, and he
thought that he didn't get as much support from Mr. Truman as he should
have had. Mr. Truman told him, "Well, you didn't take the support that
I told you to go get. I told you to go out to the county organizations
to get them to be for you, but you went out to the city organizations
and they're always in conflict with the county. And they didn't have enough
votes, and you got the short end of the stick because of it, that's all."
JOHNSON: That was when Mr. Truman was President?
[181] BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Before he became Mayor, what role did he have in county politics?
BURRUS: He was a City Councilman and was active in city affairs.
JOHNSON: Had they been friends --Truman and Sermon?
BURRUS: Personal friends, because they had been in the Army together,
He was a captain of a battery and Truman was another captain of another
battery in the 129th Field Artillery.
JOHNSON; After he lost the race for Governor, did he kind of drop out
of politics?
BURRUS: Well, he did not drop out, but he didn't have the clout that
he had had before.
JOHNSON: He didn't take a Federal job?
BURRUS: He wanted to, but didn't get one.
JOHNSON: Now we get up to the Presidency of President
[182] Harry Truman again.
I think one of the last episodes that was mentioned in the previous interview
was your visit with Harry Truman in the White House. Your first visit
was around memorial Day 1945. We did discuss a little bit the connections
and the relationships that you had with Truman while he was President
but we had just gotten into it. How would you characterize your relationship
with Mr. Truman while he was President? Let's begin with the period after
your first visit to the White House.
BURRUS: I had some leave time that I had accumulated and I didn't go
back really to practice law until the fall of 1945 because I was back
with Mrs. Burrus and my son. We also had folks in the Washington area
--Annapolis, Maryland --who had a place on the bay that was very comfortable
for us. That's where we spent most of the summer.
When I came back, of course, I had a law practice to pick up on. I began
to do that. I also had represented the County Court in a lot of matters
that I had to forego and leave at the time I left. When I came back home,
a lot of those things were still hanging over, especially some that had
to do with the State
[183]
Highway Department. So I got back on those cases;
they asked me to help with some of the cases that I had worked on before
I left, and which were still on the docket and had to be disposed of.
Along with that, I got in touch with Vivian; he was head of the real activities
for Harry in this general area. He was head of the FHA (Federal Housing
administration) too in this area.
In one episode involving Vivian and me, there was a gentleman who had
been chairman of the local Democrat party committee and he wanted to be
named as a judge to the Federal Court. But he had been doing some things
that came to Vivian's attention and mine, that if he had been appointed
by Truman, and these came to light, it would have stained the reputation
of Mr. Truman. I helped put a stop to that, and another lawyer from Kansas
was appointed judge.
JOHNSON: Who was the one that was appointed?
BURRUS: Delmas Hill; his nickname was "Buxx" Hill. He has been here at
the Library quite often; he was a friend of Truman's for a long time.
I also came to be appointed as counsel for the
[184] Reconstruction Finance Corporation.
JOHNSON: For this area, or district?
BURRUS: This district, that's right.
We had funds that had to be loaned. Some people incurred losses by reason
of floods on the Missouri River and the Kaw River, and all the borrowers
had to do was to show they had a loss and that they were eligible to get
loans. My job was to see that those things were legally taken care of.
Also, as best we could, we were to turn those down that we didn't think
were eligible --if we had any discretion about it. We did a good job in
loaning out the money. We never had a single failure of a title, and the
only foreclosures, I think, were two or three, where the borrowers were
a man and a wife who got a divorce and they couldn't get things split
up, and the RFC had to dispose of it. I believe, too, there was a case
where some body died and they had to do the same thing. But
[185] the RFC never
lost any money from any of them.
JOHNSON: What year did you become counsel for the RFC?
BURRUS: About '46. I was in six or seven years. When Eisenhower came
in, I got out.
JOHNSON: Were you deputy counsel for the County Court as well?
BURRUS: Oh, no. I represented the State Highway Department; I didn't
represent the County Court at all.
JOHNSON: You were assistant counselor for the County Court in 1927 to...
BURRUS:1941 when I went to duty.
JOHNSON: Did you take that position again when you came back?
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: So you were carrying on a private practice, and you're also
counsel to the RFC from about 1946 to '53. Did you visit Washington again,
visit the White House?
[186]
BURRUS: I visited Washington two or three times, yes.
JOHNSON: You visited Mr. Truman in the White House?
BURRUS: No, he was in Blair House.
JOHNSON: Did you go over to the oval office?
BURRUS: Yes.
JOHNSON: Do you recall your experience there in Blair House and the Oval
Office? This is after the first visit in May of '45.
BURRUS: One time I went back was when Mr. Truman came in by airplane
in June 1950 and my son and I met him at the airport. I have described
that, where he had to go back to Washington early because of the invasion
of South Korea.
I also told you about the other trip where I met Mr. Deramus, head of
the Kansas City Southern Railroad, and passed on a message from him to
President Truman.
JOHNSON: Did any other people try to use your association for particular
advantage? You were not a lobbyist, were you?
[187]
BURRUS: If anybody wanted me to, they never came to me about it, because
they knew that I wouldn't do it anyhow.
JOHNSON: You mentioned staying overnight at the Blair House in 1950.
What room did you use?
BURRUS: One of the upstairs bedrooms. Fred Wallace, the President's brother-in-law,
was with us on the plane and he also was there. They sent supper up to
us upstairs on the third floor.
JOHNSON: Third floor bedroom.
BURRUS: I guess it was third, an upper floor. I don't know which room
it was.
JOHNSON: Do you remember the White House piano there in the study? Did
you get into the study there at the Blair House?
BURRUS: I don't remember the piano.
As I mentioned earlier, I was in Washington for a Reserve Officers convention.
JOHNSON: What hotel were you staying in, do you remember,
[188] after that first night in Blair House?
BURRUS: The Mayflower. I was there when Truman made his address to the
Reserve Officers about the Korean affair. That was also the visit where
I overheard him talking to Averell Harriman on the phone, when I was in
the swimming pool.
JOHNSON: Did Harriman have a photographic memory? Were you impressed
with his memory?
BURRUS: He did. He remembered it with exactness.
JOHNSON: Is that where your swimming habit started or did it start before
that? I understand that you take a swim almost daily, even now.
BURRUS: I do today. Not quite that often, though.
JOHNSON: There aren't too many people who got to swim in the White House
swimming pool, however. Do you remember Ted Sanders? He helped organize
the campaign in Cameron back in '34, and he was a close friend of Fred
Canfil.
[189]
BURRUS: I remember Fred Canfil, but I don't remember Ted Sanders.
JOHNSON: There is one thing that comes to mind in that connection. We
have Ted Sanders' recollection in talking to Mr. Truman and Fred Canfil,
just the three of them, in Kansas City before the 1944 convention in which
Truman said he was going to be nominated for the Vice Presidency. He said
Robert Hannegan told him that. That came as a surprise to me, in that
most of the information we have suggests that Truman went to Chicago without
any plan or hope of becoming Vice President. Did he ever talk to you about
how he came to be nominated?
BURRUS: Yes. He said that he had agreed to nominate somebody else, Jimmy
Byrnes, but he learned after he had made his commitment to do that, that
Mr. Roosevelt decided he wanted to have him as the Vice President. He
said he agreed to nominate Jimmy Byrnes because he had great respect for
him. Later on, of course, when he was Secretary
[190] of State, Byrnes overstepped
his bounds and President Truman removed him.
JOHNSON: Did he ever talk to you about Henry Wallace?
BURRUS: No. Except that he did say that Mr. Roosevelt had decreed that
he didn't want Mr. Wallace as Vice Presidential nominee for a second term.
JOHNSON: Any other incidents in Washington that you can remember?
BURRUS: I remember him once telling me, "I'm going to make an address
on the radio this evening. You and Mrs. Burrus are here. Why don't you
come over and listen to it? It won't be televised, just be on radio."
I said, "Fine."
So I said I'd bring her and I did, and we went over and came into the
room where he had everything all set up. He was making an address really
to the Russians in which he wanted them to know the fact that he wanted
them to have peace with us, and that we would
[191] also keep our troops in
balance with theirs. He made his address and after he got finished, and
was cut off, he said, "Well, I made that. You might just as well talk
to the wind; they won't do anything with it and won't pay any attention
to it, but I want it to be on the record that I made this address, made
this attempt to have them to conciliate themselves with our views." So
that was that.
JOHNSON: When was that?
BURRUS: I'm not sure. I believe it was after the Korean war started.
Mrs. Burrus and I were the only two persons besides the people doing the
work.
JOHNSON: Was that sort of like a Fireside Chat?
BURRUS: Well, it wasn't in the Oval Office. It was in a special part
that they had.
JOHNSON: Was it in the living quarters, in the study?
BURRUS: It was in one of the White House offices. It was one of those
side rooms off of there.
JOHNSON: Did you ever get into the living quarters of the
[192] White House?
BURRUS: No.
JOHNSON: I notice that you were very much involved with the Reserve Officers
Association.
BURRUS: I was commander of the Kansas City chapter; we met at Richards
Gebaur [Air Force Base]. I was a delegate to the national conference,
representing Missouri I knew a lot of the folks there, and we had people
we wanted to have put in the various office. I could have some of my friends
here in Missouri do what they wanted to have done and get things done,
that were helpful to Mr. Truman.
JOHNSON: Truman addressed them in June 1950 in Washington which we've
talked about. Do you recall him ever giving any other address or speech
to the ROA?
BURRUS: No, I don't.
JOHNSON: You mentioned meeting out at Richards Gebaur.
BURRUS: The Reserve officers did. That's the Kansas City chapter that
Mr. Truman organized in 1922. In 1926
[193] and 27 when I got in with Mr. Truman
in the military, that's where I met with them and got to be a member of
that Reserve officers unit. Later on they made me commander of the Kansas
City chapter. On one occasion, after Mr. Truman had left the Presidency,
we had the Judge Advocate Generals of the various areas of the nation
meeting out there. We had quite a few folks present. Besides Mr. Truman,
we had as a guest, Tom Clark, the United States Supreme Court justice.
So they sat at the head table, and I was there in the group. There must
have been six or seven hundred in the audience. Mr. Truman sat up there
and some of those folks were coming up with their programs and wanting
Mr. Truman to autograph them, and they also wanted Clark to autograph
them. Well, Mr. Truman saw that wasn't right, and I did too. I said, "I
want to make an announcement about stopping it." He said, "Just leave
it to me; let me do it." He got up and said, "Now, I want to have dinner
this evening; I don't want to be interrupted. Justice Clark and I want
to dine leisurely. So if you'll just be good enough to get your programs
together and give them
[194] to Colonel Burrus and Colonel Vaughan, they'll
assemble them and then I'll take them to my office and I'll sign them
and send them back to you. You put your addresses on there so I'll know
where to send them." Sure enough, that stopped it. Then I began to get
them; there must have been five or six hundred of them. We had to have
some special envelopes made for them. Well, he sent it to them all, and
that's how he did it. Tom Clark was there too, and both of them made some
remarks to the officers.
JOHNSON: Did Mr. Truman ever talk to you about Tom Clark, or tell you
his impressions of Tom Clark?
BURRUS: It was always the most friendly relations you could have. When
this fellow Merle Miller quoted Truman as saying the Clark appointment
was the biggest mistake. he ever made, that just wasn't true.
JOHNSON: We've been trying to figure that out too.
BURRUS: Merle Miller doesn't have anything except what he said Mr. Truman
told him, and Mr. Truman, being dead, wasn't able to deny them. I prepared
some things
[195]
for a file and wanted Mr. Clark to let me publish them. "Well,"
he said, "let's don't do that." He said, "The more you pick up something
that's got stinking dirty stuff on it, the more stink you get on you."
I said, "All right," and we didn't do it.
JOHNSON: There is a theory about that. You know, after Mr. Truman left
office he was charged by Attorney General Brownell, of the Eisenhower
administration, of allowing a Communist, Harry Dexter White, to be hired
by the Federal Government. Harry Dexter White was accused of being Communist,
and they accused Truman of knowing about it and still hiring him. White
had died in the meantime.
Well, our Library has a file of papers of the Solicitor General, Philip
Perlman, that indicate that Mr. Truman wanted Mr. Clark, who now was a
member of the Supreme Court, to comment about his role in hiring Harry
Dexter White when he was Attorney General. Apparently because he was on
the Supreme Court at this point, Justice Clark felt that he should not
comment about the Harry Dexter White case, or the controversy, even though
he had been the one who recommended or approved
[196] his hiring. Apparently,
Clark's refusal to get involved bothered Mr. Truman because he was under
all of this pressure of having to defend the hiring of White. It also
appeared, to Truman, to be a political thing in which the new administration
was trying to tarnish his reputation. Justice Clark would not comment
about it, and this irritated Mr. Truman, it seems. Have you ever heard
anything about that theory?
BURRUS: As far as I was ever able to observe, Mr. Truman had no intentions
for anything except the kindliest and friendliest relations with Tom Clark
and Tom Clark with him. And the wives had the same kind of relationship.
JOHNSON: Yes, of course, the Miller you're talking about is the one that
wrote Plain Speaking. Did Merle Miller ever talk to you?
BURRUS: He quoted me, but he never talked to me.
JOHNSON: He quoted you without talking to you?
BURRUS: I guess I had given an interview to somebody,
[197] and that fell into
his hands in some fashion, he referred to me as "Luther Burrus" in his
work. That again demonstrates that he didn't understand something on the
tapes. When I saw it in print I got a copy of it, and I didn't like it
and I knew he was going to be out at the Mall writing autographs. I made
a point of going out to see him. I went out and got in line, and I had
my name written down and I said, "I just want to tell you you made a hell
of a mistake when you quoted me as being 'Luther' Burrus. I'm Rufus Burrus,
but you never saw me and never talked to me until I am talking with you
now. You just got hold of some documents or some tapes that you have used,
and you haven't quoted me correctly about them either, but I want you
to put your name on this thing."
He said, "Well, I'm going to publish some corrections."
I said, "Don't worry about that; you just do as you please about that.
Don't bother me about that. I just want you to sign this and date it today."
He did, and I said, "I'd like to have a chance to have more of a visit
with you. What about tomorrow? Can I see you?"
[198]
"Oh, no, I'll have to be leaving early in the morning."
I said, "That's all right; if you don't have any time, that's okay."
And that's when I left him. But that's the only time I ever had a chance
to see him, and I didn't talk with him except then. He had those tapes
that several of us had given out for Mr. Truman's use, and he got hold
of them, somehow, and how I don't know.
JOHNSON: Who had those tapes?
BURRUS: I think it was this fellow, [David] Susskind.
JOHNSON: Oh, yes, David Susskind.
BURRUS: I think those were the ones that he had gotten.
JOHNSON: Oh, I see. Were you interviewed by David Susskind?
BURRUS: I was interviewed by someone representing him. It wasn't Susskind
himself.
JOHNSON: They were being done for a TV series, Decision:
[199] The Conflicts
of Harry S. Truman. Did you appear in any of those segments? Did they
quote you in the finished version?
BURRUS: No, I don't think they did. But I might have been on radio. I
happened to be in San Francisco and someone had the radio on and said
to me, "We heard you on the radio this morning." What it was I don't know.
It could have been that one, I suppose.
JOHNSON: Was this just a tape recording or were they doing a movie?
BURRUS: No, it was a tape recording.
JOHNSON: It is well known that Miller's account of Truman's meeting with
MacArthur at Wake Island in October 1950 is at odds with the Memoirs
and with other documents as to what happened. Did you ever talk to Mr.
Truman about MacArthur?
BURRUS: Yes. He said MacArthur was giving out information and having
interviews which were not in accordance with the policies from Washington.
He had General Marshall and other folks look into it. Marshall said the
President
[200]
should have fired MacArthur two years ago. Truman believed that
every effort should be made not to make a martyr out of MacArthur.
JOHNSON: Did you ever see or meet General Marshall?
BURRUS: No, I never had occasion to.
JOHNSON: Many sources have quoted President Truman as praising him as
one of the greatest Americans ever, greatest military leader we've had.
BURRUS: That's right.
JOHNSON: Did you ever meet Eisenhower?
BURRUS: I was in the presence of General Eisenhower when he was here
at the Library. After Mr. Truman left the Presidency he never had a line
from Eisenhower directly, never had anything at all directly to do with
him. In Kansas City there was a People to People program and after Eisenhower
left office he was designated to head that program. Joyce Hall of the
Hallmark Corporation was behind that move.
Well, Joyce Hall and Charlie Stevenson wanted Mr.
[201] Truman to meet with
General Eisenhower before he became the People to People head. So they
came out here to the Library to see Mr. Truman. I happened to come in
as they were leaving. Charlie Stevenson saw me and said, "Rufe, I want
to see you in the next day or two."
I said, "That's fine." He didn't say what. A couple of days later he
said, "I want you to meet me over at Joyce Hall's office."
I said, "Where's that?"
He said, "That's up in the big building there, at the Hallmark Card place."
"Oh," I said, "all right; I'll find it."
So I went over and met them. Hall said, "You know, we're going to have
General Eisenhower to be the head of the People to People program, and
that means we need all of us to get together." He said, "Former Presidents
like Mr. Truman and the General ought to have an arrangement to speak
with each other."
I said, "Yes, that's right. You remember so far as Mr. Truman is concerned,
he was never afforded any opportunity to have any discussion with the General.
[202]
The General knew where Truman was, and Mr. Truman tried to speak
to him two or three times when he was in Kansas City. But each time he
was advised that he had his time all taken up and wouldn't be able to
see him to talk with him, to make an appointment for him. Well, he came
to the conclusion after a couple of times that he just wasn't going to
make any more effort to do it."
I was asked, "What do you suggest?" To the idea of a breakfast for them,
or a dinner for them, I said "Mr. Truman won't do that I'm sure." I said,
"I suggest that the General come and call on Mr. Truman, which he should
do at the Library. He's going to be here in the city, I understand from
you."
Mr. Hall said, "Yes, we'll see."
They never did tell me what was finally decided, but we began hearing
through Senator [Harry] Darby from Kansas that the General was going to
be here and that he was going to come calling on Mr. Truman. He got word
to Tom Evans on that, and Tom Evans called me and said, "Tell Mr. Truman."
I replied, "All right." So that's how we learned about it, in that fashion.
[203] JOHNSON: You got that thing started.
BURRUS: Yes. So when I talked to Mr. Truman about it, he said, "Now you
be here tomorrow morning, when this is coming off. You put your uniform
on too."
I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Be here at 8 o'clock because we'll have
a lot of newspaper people and other folks setting up, and I want you to
help me keep them back because I'm going to wait for Mr. Eisenhower to
come here to my office. He's calling on me. My office is back behind that
front door and that's where he's going to come see me. That's where I'm
going to be."
I said, "All right."
He said, "They want me, I expect, to come out to the car and meet him
and I'm not coming to the car and meet him. I want you to tell them that."
Well, when I got here that morning, there was a lot of folks around and
they were putting up the wires and getting things all strung up. Among
them was Roy Roberts of all folks, because he never got up before noon
ordinarily and he was there then. He said, "Well, now we ought to have
everything arranged so that when the General comes, Mr. Truman comes out
to the car and meets him."
[204]
I said, "No sir, Mr. Roberts, we're not going to do that. Mr. Truman
doesn't want to do that. The General is calling on him. His part of the
Library is over here at this spot and that's where he's going to meet
him; that's where he's going to call on him. That's it." He kept on. And
I said, "And further than that, Mr. Roberts, I won't have any more conversation
with you. I want you to stay back with all the rest of your lackey boys
and don't come barging in here about that." I knew him well enough that
you couldn't offend him. So he finally moved out. As time went on we began
to hear on the radio that the plane had landed and Eisenhower was on his
way. Finally, he came up and Truman said for me to go out to the car and
meet the General and escort him in.
I went out to the car. He had a hat that was in his hand, and I said,
"I'll take care of your hat, sir."
He said, "Well, don't lose it."
I said, "That's a very good hat. I can feel and tell that, and let me
assure you I'll personally see that you get your hat back all right. I
know what it
[205]
means to take care of hats." I said, "Mr. Truman's waiting.
We didn't know you were coming for sure until we heard it on the radio
in the last little while that you were on the way." He looked at me kind
of strange. I said, "That's right."
Well, I took him in the door; then I stepped back, and Truman stepped
toward the door and the General came through. Mr. Truman greeted him in
a very friendly sort of a way. After having a few words with him, he turned
and said, "I want you to know my friend Colonel Burrus." It just happened
that some newspaper fellow was present and he saw Mr. Truman saying that
to the General, and so the General turned to me and we shook hands right
in the presence of Truman. That's the first time the two were pictured
together in the Library. That's in the file here too. So that's what was
happening.
I left him there in his office. Truman had said, "I want to have some
time with him. And when he gets ready to leave that's all right, I'll
probably get up and go with him."
Well, he did. In time they started out toward
[206] the museum. [Philip] Brooks
was Library Director at the time and he went along. Mr. Truman started
to show the General some of the things. They came to the Oval Room. Mr.
Truman's portrait was on the left side, and the General's was on the right
side of the entry. The General looked up, and Mr. Truman said, "You might
recognize that portrait." He said, "That's the one that was given to us
by Harry Darby. It's been reported that Harry paid $5,000 for it and it's
a good portrait." The General said, "But you got it on the preferred side."
Truman said, "Yes sir, General, and I had it put there."
Well, the General got red in the face when Mr. Truman told him that.
I didn't realize that when the General got into the White House he took
all of the things that had anything to do with Truman and the Democrats,
and put them into storage. That was what Truman was demonstrating to him,
sort of rubbing his nose into it.
JOHNSON: You say he called that "preferred position,"
[207] where Eisenhower's portrait was?
BURRUS: That was changed back, and Mr. Truman's portrait is there now.
But that time it was the other way around, you see.
JOHNSON: Do you think that embarrassed Eisenhower, to be treated that
nicely?
BURRUS: That's right.
Then when Mr. Truman took him out, he pointed to a copy of General Eisenhower's
memoirs that had been autographed by the General to Mr. Truman. He had
it opened to where it would show the inscription. Mr. Truman said, "There
is somebody's handwriting over there that you might recognize." The General
went over and looked at it and read it, including the laudatory comments
it included about President Truman. He got red in the face again. Well,
that's what happened there.
In some places of the museum, Mr. Truman asked me to stay with the General
and represent him. The General singled me out two or three times and explained
[208]
to me how glad he was that he came to see the Library and how glad he
was to meet Mr. Truman, and how good it was to be with him. He told me
he wished he had seen the Library earlier. He said he would have made
some changes in his own Library, because he liked the arrangement better here.
JOHNSON: So they started patching their differences up then?
BURRUS: That's right. From then on the relationship warmed up.
Soon after that occasion, the Speaker of the House, Sam Rayburn died.
The funeral was in Texas. Mr. Truman, the General, and President Kennedy
met at his funeral-along with Vice President Johnson.
Mr. Truman said to me, "You know, having met as we did at the Library
before that, it made it less awkward to meet at the funeral service."
He said, "I'm glad we had a chance to do that." He said that the General
also expressed his pleasure at the chance to meet at the Library.
JOHNSON: That's quite a picture, you know, two former
[209] Presidents, an
existing President and a future President all there together.
One of the things that really bothered Mr. Truman was when General Eisenhower
refused to compliment General Marshall on this trip to Wisconsin in 1952
in order to placate McCarthyites, McCarthy supporters. Did he ever talk
to you about McCarthy or say anything about his opinions of Joe McCarthy?
BURRUS: He just was a fellow that didn't know really what he was doing,
and he just went off on a tangent against everybody else. Mr. Truman said
not to pay any attention to him, just let him go.
JOHNSON: Did he ever say anything about that episode where Eisenhower
did delete this reference, this complimentary reference to Marshall?
BURRUS: No. He did say that he was glad that he had a chance to renew
his acquaintance and relationship with the General.
Later on there was an occasion where Joyce Hall hosted a dinner over
there at Hallmark, and I was invited to take Mr. Truman. Both he and Mrs.
Truman were there, along
[210] with Mrs. Burrus and me. I went as his aide.
They had a very beautiful dinner set up for us and the Eisenhowers. Mrs.
Eisenhower had had a tooth extracted and she had been in some pain beforehand,
but she was there to participate in it. Mrs. Truman and all of us got
on just fine. It was a rare opportunity for Mrs. Truman and Mrs. Eisenhower
to socialize.
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