Tom L. Evans Oral History Interview, June 13, 1963

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened August, 1966
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

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FUCHS: Tom, the last time, we had just finished discussing the first mention you remember of Mr. Truman being a possible candidate for the vice-presidential nomination in 1944. You recounted an incident in the Kansas City Club where he was shown a magazine article, which proposed or said that they should begin thinking of him as a potential candidate. Now, you said that was your first recollection. Do you have any other recollections of the idea being broached that he would be a good vice-presidential candidate?

EVANS: Well, at that particular time, when we read this at the luncheon of the 822 Club, he, of course, laughed it off, wasn't interested in it at all, there wasn't anything to it--I mean, it was just a huge joke as far as Mr. Truman was concerned. Then as time went on, and we, in those days, had lunch often together, and there was

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stories constantly appearing, more and more so, and he continuously just laughed them off whenever somebody at lunch would bring it up, and so forth. Actually, he never appeared at all interested or serious about it and I again say, just a joke. I recall, it seems to me like it must have been--maybe I'm wrong--that it was over two weeks before the National Convention in Chicago that he was getting ready to go up. That's an awful long time before a convention to go to a convention, but I'm sure it was over two weeks before the convention--he talked about going and he and Mrs. Truman was going to drive up. I remember some of us jokingly saying to him, "Well, you're going up to try to get the vice-presidential nomination." No, he was going up to try to keep from it, but always joking and in jest. And he did leave, at least two weeks, I'm sure, before the convention. He and Mrs. Truman may have stopped someplace, I don't recall, but the next thing I knew about the thing--let's see, the convention opened on a Monday, and I am sure that it was on

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Monday or Tuesday before the convention opened on a Monday, that I got a call from him in Chicago (long-distance call) and his first thing when I answered the phone was: "Are you my friend?"

And I said, "I hope so, why?"

And he said, "If you are, I need you up here to help keep me from being Vice President. How soon can you get up?"

"I can come right away."

He said, "Well, come on; I need you."

That was what he wanted me up there for, to help him keep from being nominated for Vice President of the United States.

FUCHS: How did he think you could help him?

EVANS: Well, he didn't elaborate over the telephone. I guess probably what he wanted was for me to go around to various delegates and tell them that he was not interested and wouldn't serve, and so forth. That's usually customary when you want something, you do that, and when you don’t want

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something you do that, so I presume that's what he had in mind. Anyway, I took a plane and went right up to Chicago as soon as I could get a bag packed, and went to the Steven's Hotel; I believe it was Tuesday before the convention actually opened on the following Monday.

FUCHS: You mean, that far before the convention opened. I believe the convention opened the week of Monday, July 17, and the convention convened on Wednesday, the 19th, as I recall.

EVANS: I thought it opened on a Monday, but...

FUCHS: Well, perhaps the preliminaries did occur that early.

EVANS: Anyway, it was at least five or six days before. I thought, "Well, what do you do?" But I found a lot of people there, a lot of delegates there that early alright.

FUCHS: In other words, you would have been up there as early as the 12th or 13th of July?

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EVANS: Yes, that's right. And when I got to the hotel, I inquired of his room number. I didn't even call; I went right up on the elevator to his room (he had a parlor and a bedroom), and knocked at the door and he opened the door. That's where I found Mr. Roy Roberts, president of the Kansas City Star, who was a great friend of mine, Republican, incidentally; and he's sitting there with Mr. Truman and I said, "Well, what are you doing here, Roy?"

He said, "Well, I'm Harry's campaign manager for Vice President."

I said, "Well, you're fired; I'm taking over."

He said, "You mean fired."

I said, "Yeah, fired, get out:"

And he left. Of course, we were good friends and that was in jest, but Mr. Truman and I visited as old friends would and I said, "What's this story about you don't want to be Vice President? You know who I am, I'm Tom Evans, you can talk frankly to me. Of course, anybody wants to be

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Vice President, so you don't have to kid me."

And he said, "No, I don't want to be Vice President at all; that's why I want you up here for, to help me keep from it. I want you to talk it around that I do not want it." I want you to let my friends know that I do not want to be Vice President."

And I said, "Why, that's ridiculous?"

He said, "Well, I don't want to drag out a lot of skeletons out of the closet."

I said, "Well, now wait a minute. This is something I don't know anything about. I didn't know you had skeletons. What are they? Maybe I wouldn't want you to run either, but you got to tell me; what are these skeletons?"

And he said, "Well, the worst thing is that I've had the boss," meaning Mrs. Truman, "on the payroll in my Senate office and I'm not going to have her name drug over the front pages of the paper and over the radio."

And I said, "Well, Lord, that isn't anything

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too great. I can think of a dozen senators and fifty congressmen that have their wives on the payroll. That isn't anything terrible."

"Yes, but I don't want them bringing her name up." He said, "I'm just not going through that. I'm satisfied being a senator and I think I'm doing a good job; I think I have done the country a great favor and I just want to stay there and be let alone; I'm happy. I don't want to drag her name out. There isn't any way you can get by," I'm quoting him now, "as a United States Senator unless you do have your wife on the payroll, because it's expensive to live and maintain your, so to speak, two homes."

And I said, "Of course, you can't," not on what they were paying in those days. If I remember right, Jim, and I'm not sure, I think at the time we were having this discussion a United States Senator's salary (and I'd like to have you check it sometime and let me know) was $10,000 a year.

FUCHS: I believe that's right.

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EVANS: I thought maybe I was off. I believe today it's $22,500 and I think in those days they had an expense account of about $5,000, which they had to account for, and as I understand now, that expense account (and they still have to account for it), is about $50,000. So, anyway, if it was $10,000, certainly you couldn't live on it--unless you were being paid off on the side--unless you did have your wife on, and I sort of explained it to him.

FUCHS: Did you know she was on his payroll, or was it a revelation to you?

EVANS: I knew that she was in the office, because, of course, I'd see her there. And I knew she did a darn good job in the office, but it never crossed my mind of whether she was on the payroll or whether she wasn't. I mean, I just didn't even think about it. That's the first time I actually

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knew it, and it was no shock to me by any means, because, as I say, I knew of at least a half a dozen senators whose wives were on the payroll and another half a dozen who had sons and daughters on the payroll and forty or fifty congressmen who had relatives galore on the payroll. So that wasn't anything. I said, "Well, what else keeps you from wanting to be Vice President?"

And he said, "Well, one thing, I just don't have any money; I can't go through an expensive national campaign." He said, "As you know, I'm still paying off on my last campaign; I never have been out of debt, and I just can't take on a campaign."

And I said, "Well, that doesn't need to be a worry. I can assure you that I can raise enough money for your campaign and it won't cost you anything. Your friends will take care of it."

And he said, "No, I just don't want to do it. I just want to be a United States Senator, and I want to hold that job as long as I think I am

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doing a good job; and I just don't even want to think about it and I want you to do everything you can to keep them from considering me."

And try as I might to sell him on the idea, Mrs. Truman having worked in the office and him being short of money--and that's the only thing that was wrong--was no handicap, I had no luck whatsoever in selling him; and he made me virtually promise that I would help him keep from being nominated. I must say that I didn't do a very good job; I didn't do what he wanted me to. I said to what few friends I had around, that I thought he'd make a grand Vice President, but he wouldn't accept it.

FUCHS: To go back just a moment. In the days before the convention, in the Kansas City Club and other places, when he jokingly, as you say, protested against being considered for Vice President, did you think that actually he may have wanted to be Vice President?

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EVANS: I actually thought, Jim, in those days, and many days when he laughed, and joked about it (and this was purely my impression), that he felt he didn't have a chance. This is my idea of his idea, do you see what I mean?

FUCHS: Yes, I certainly do.

EVANS: That this was just talk by newspaper people and there wasn't any chance of it and it was silly to consider it, and if he did, he really didn't want it. He was happy as United States Senator; that it wasn't serious enough to give it much thought; it was a joke.

FUCHS: Did you feel then that it was a little bit more of a serious matter with the people who were mentioning him and that he might have a chance?

EVANS: No, I sort of had the same feeling, that it was not too serious at that time; that it was more or less in the minds of the newspaper people, particularly, that had had contact with him on his

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investigating committee. Most all of them thought the world and all of him, and it was more just as we term in politics, Jim, a "trial balloon," and I didn't really give it any serious thought. We both felt the same way about it, and I didn't get serious until...and, in Chicago, he said (and I believe I'm right in this) in this meeting in the room, that he had had a talk with Barkley, or that somebody had talked to him about Barkley, and that he was prepared to nominate him for Vice President. So he said, "My word's out; I just couldn't do it, and I want you to tell people, anybody that talks to you, you just tell them that I'm not interested."

Well, real soon Lew Barringer, one of his good friends from Memphis, Tennessee, came to the convention.

FUCHS: How did he happen to be a friend of Mr. Truman's, do you know?

EVANS: Well, yes. Lew Barringer is in the cotton business

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in Memphis, Tennessee, and, as I understand it, has been for many years--well, I shall term it a lobbyist for the cotton industry in Washington to get favorable legislation. I knew Lew because he's maintained a permanent residence in the Mayflower Hotel; oh, I knew Lew back in the middle thirties being in and around Washington. I think probably half of his time was spent there. Then I used to see him up on the Hill in Senator Truman's office, various other senators and congressmen; we would often meet in the hotel, have dinner together. We were just friends, and even in those days Lew spoke very highly of the then Senator Truman, about what a wonderful fellow he was and how when he gave his word for anything, why, you could depend on it and that was more than you could with most of them. That he had had difficulty in convincing him to be for certain things, but, nevertheless, he admired him because he did not hesitate to tell him; that he came right out and said, "I'd be against it." So, as a result, there was a nice friendship developed between Lew Barringer

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of Memphis, Tennessee and Mr. Truman. I know, oh my, Lew sent me a substantial amount of money in his campaign for senator in '40, and even sent a contribution for his first senatorial campaign because he had met him in Kansas City when he was out here, when he was presiding judge of the county court. Barringer had met him when he was here on, I believe, a Kenton--there's a company makes Kenton Towels, do you know what I mean--he was here on a Kenton Towel convention and he met Mr. Truman for the first time when he was presiding judge. And he sent me a small contribution for the first time and a substantial amount for the second time because then he knew him. The friendship dated back to the time that he was presiding judge of the county court.

Well, Lew came in and Mr. Truman told him the same thing in my presence. Lew had a lot of connections with various congressmen and senators, and Lew and I spent worlds of time together there at that convention. But we probably didn't do

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quite as well as Mr. Truman expected us to, to talk against him, because Lew is a typical Southerner and I remember him talking on the telephone to his good friend who was "Boss Crump." You remember hearing of him--and he said, "Well, Boss, the Senator says he doesn't want to be--I know he'd make a good Vice President, Boss, but he says he doesn't want to be. Yes, I'd like to see him be Vice President, but he says he doesn't want to be."

And, Jim, I'll never forget that conversation, because it lasted twenty minutes and that's all that Lew Barringer ever said, "Yes, he'd make a very fine Vice President, but he doesn't want to be, Boss. Yes, I know, he doesn't want to be, though."

And that's all he ever said.

FUCHS: Where was Crump when he was talking to Lew Barringer?

EVANS: I think in Tennessee.

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FUCHS: What hotel were you staying in?

EVANS: It was called the Stevens then, but it's the Hilton, now, I guess.

FUCHS: That was where Mr. Truman was registered also?

EVANS: Yes. That's where he had his bedroom and a living room, but Mrs. Truman and he were registered at another hotel, and I can't remember the name--way away from the loop so that they could get some rest, but his headquarters was in the Stevens Hotel, and my room was in the Stevens Hotel; but to get rest, Mrs. Truman was out in this other hotel, quite a ways out.

FUCHS: He had a headquarters then, but he wasn't, presumably, running for anything.

EVANS: Well, he was actually chairman of our Missouri delegation, as I remember, and he had a headquarters because he was on the Rules Committee of the convention, and that's why he was there so much

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earlier than the average delegate, because they were preparing the rules and the procedure of the convention. So his headquarters was--Senator Harry S. Truman Headquarters, and a delegate, a Missouri delegate to the National Convention. And I did about the same as Lew Barringer. I would see various and sundry people who were coming in, "What about your friend Truman for Vice President?"

"Well, he's wonderful, but he won't accept it. He doesn't want to be. He wants to stay United States Senator. I'd like to see him be Vice President." Instead of saying "no, " I'd say "yes." But that's the way Lew Barringer and I worked. I well remember that--oh, there was a lot of Kansas City people, up there, especially in the latter part of the week, and naturally they'd come to Mr. Truman's suite. His old friend Canfil was there--you know about him.

FUCHS: Fred Canfil, yes, I know that you have some stories about him that I'd like to bring in some time.

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EVANS: Canfil was there, who was, of course, a great friend of Mr. Truman--"Man Friday" I always called him, There wasn't a thing in the world that Fred wouldn't do for Mr. Truman. I think he'd cut off his right arm, I really, honestly do, if it would have helped Mr. Truman. And he was a very odd and very peculiar individual.

FUCHS: What was the inception of their relationship?

EVANS: I've often asked Mr. Truman about that because he was such a peculiar fellow, and I really have never gotten the straight of it because it was really none of my particular business, but it dated back a long time. Fred was a very peculiar individual. I understand that Fred was married and had a family and nobody, including Mr. Truman, ever met his wife or saw any of his family. I mean that sort of explains his peculiarity; but anyway, Fred was there working, tending the door, more or less, at Mr. Truman's headquarters.

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I remember, one particular individual, Herman Shapiro, who was a gentleman from Kansas City, a good friend of mine, in the real estate business, who built a lot of buildings here in Kansas City, and apparently had made a substantial amount of money and was well-known, and a very fine individual. Herman had two brothers, one (I can't remember his name--Julius I think) was a lawyer; another brother was a lawyer, I believe, but was in the prosecuting attorney's office, and Herman, I think, had a lot to do with the Federal Housing Administration in building buildings and getting Federal help. Oh, he knew Mr. Truman intimately and was constantly in Washington on his various projects.

FUCHS: Was he a delegate to the convention?

EVANS: No, he was not. Herman was a good friend of Jim Pendergast, who was, of course, the head, you know, of the so-called "Goat" faction of Kansas City, Jim was there, in and out; I mean he was

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in Chicago--he was a delegate and I remember Herman saying to me in Mr, Truman's suite, "Well, the Senator will have no trouble, I don't believe, in getting the Vice Presidential nomination if he wanted it."

I said, "Yes, but he doesn't want it, he won't take it. I've talked to him at length."

"Well, why?"

So I told Herman that, number one, the skeleton in the closet, and that skeleton turned out to be the fact that Mrs. Truman was on the payroll, that bothered him, as I explained before; number two, he didn't have the money to finance a national campaign. And Herman said, "I'll guarantee you that I'll raise $25,000 for him if he accepts the nomination." And I remember calling Mr. Truman and telling him what Herman had said right in front of him. "Well," he said, "that's fine, but I don't want it; I just want to be a United States Senator," again and was positive, and I'm sure, Jim, he positively did not want to be.

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He was happy; he thought he was doing a good job; he and Mrs. Truman enjoyed their quiet life in Washington--it was quiet--I've been in their apartment a number of times--just a lovely little apartment, and they really enjoyed life. He worked like the dickens and he thought he was doing a good job and I'm sure he was. I've heard him say how many hundreds of millions of dollars he saved the taxpayers and how many tens of thousands of American boys' lives he saved by getting the manufacturers of war materials to do a good job and sacrifice some profit, instead of the way they did in World War I. So, he was doing a good job, and he was sincere; he did want to remain right there.

So I called him in and he said, "Well," he said, "that's fine, and I thank you Herman, but just let me alone; I'm satisfied where I am." And that’s the way he did until the convention opened, and the man from St. Louis who was Postmaster General, Chairman of the National Committee...?

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FUCHS: Robert Hannegan.

EVANS: Bob Hannegan, would get mad at him because he wouldn't agree to accept it. Bob wanted to be for him and with so many, many people there, I was awfully busy seeing the people that Mr. Truman and I knew. It kept me busy. Mr. Truman was seeing a lot of people--senators, you know, and people that he had had contact with all over the country that I didn't know, and he was just as busy saying "no," as I was busy saying that that's what he wanted me to do, but I wasn't for it. That went on and on and on.

FUCHS: What was the position of Roy Roberts there, actually?

EVANS: Well, Roy Roberts, at that time, was president of the Kansas City Star and he was, of course, a nationally known Republican, and he was always friendly to Mr. Truman, but of course, he took no part. He was there as an observer and to write the stories. And he did write some stories

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I'm sure you've gotten out of the Kansas City Star. He's a tremendous guy when it comes to writing. I know him intimately. To digress for a minute, I went to Washington with him and was with him for two weeks. He doesn't drink any more, but in those days, he drank a minimum of a fifth of scotch a day and a lot of days, two fifths. I swear he weighed 350 to 375 pounds. He ate six, seven meals a day. I've seen him actually eat a normal meal, that a normal person would, consisting of a starter and a steak, potatoes, a vegetable, and a salad and dessert, and then order another steak, time after time. I've played poker with him, and so has Mr. Truman, when we'd all eat a normal meal and he would take extra helpings of everything and then within an hour, he would have a couple of--one of his favorites was a brain sandwich--and he’d eat a couple of sandwiches. Oh. he had an enormous appetite. Well, the point of the story, is, we were there two weeks, I don't think he averaged three hours sleep a night for the two weeks, I'd

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say he drank a minimum of a fifth of scotch a day and most days two fifths. I never saw him with a pencil in his hand. We had a suite, he had one room and I had another with a living room between, and I never saw him make a note or anything. He came back after that two weeks and he wrote a series of six articles about the goings on in Washington and they were perfect, all from memory. He was a great writer and a great newspaperman. So, he was there, really, you ask me, for reporting.

FUCHS: Do you recall him urging Mr. Truman to take the Vice Presidential nomination or doing any type of campaigning?

EVANS: No, no, I don't think he did. I think perhaps with some of his good friends he would say, "Well, Harry Truman's a capable fellow and he's honest and he's dependable and he's done a good job; he would make a good Vice President, but he don't want it." I've heard him say that to various friends of his who were there. You see, Mr. Roberts

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was stationed in Washington for years as a representative of the Kansas City Star in Washington. He knew every one of the Democrats and Republicans that attended National Conventions and knew most all of them by their first names. And he always had a good word to say for Mr. Truman, off the record, and, I think, sometimes on the record, in the Kansas City Star.

Well, that was the situation that prevailed, it seems to me, for weeks, but, of course, it wasn't. I was busy seeing these people and everybody urging him and everybody willing, like Herman Shapiro, to raise all the money he needed blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This went on and the convention opened. The convention was going on, and I was in my suite in the Stevens Hotel and the phone rang and it was Bob Hannegan. He said, "Tom, where's Senator Truman. I want to talk to him."

"Well, he's not here,"

He said, "Where is he?"

I said, "He's downstairs in a meeting of the

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Rules Committee."

He said, "Well, I've got to get him right away."

And I said, "Well, you can't get him until the meeting's over."

He said, "Well, I got to. This is the most important call he ever had in his life. I've got a man on the telephone that's got to talk to him, and it's tremendously important and you've got to go down and get him out of that meeting and bring him over across the street to room so-and-so in the Blackstone Hotel." That's where Bob Hannegan had his headquarters which was right across the street from the Stevens. And I protested that he didn't want anyone to bother him and he insisted, and I mean insisted, that this was absolutely necessary; that this was the most important call and he had to take it. So. I went down to the place where this Rules Committee was meeting, and got Senator Truman out of the meeting and told him what Hannegan had said, and walked across the

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street with him to the Blackstone Hotel and up to Mr. Hannegan's room. In the room was a number of people. It seems to me like a dozen or fifteen. I'm sorry to say I can't tell you who they were because things happened so fast. We walked in and I remember Bob saying, "Harry, the Boss is on the telephone out in California, and he wants to talk to you."

He said, "I don't want to talk to him because I don't want to be Vice President."

And he said, "Well, you've got to talk to him and he wants you to be Vice President."

"Well, I don't want to," but all the time he's going and somebody had the telephone up and was getting this connection through. And, of course, this connection was with Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was out in California on his special train. And I remember, the then Senator Truman picking up the phone and saying, "Hello, how are you? Glad to talk to you, Mr. President." Which isn't what he said just three minutes before--he

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didn't want to talk to him.

FUCHS: Oh, he did talk to President Roosevelt on the phone.

EVANS: Oh, yes, and I heard the conversation. "Well, I just think, Mr. President, that I've done a good job where I am and I'm happy, and I want to stay there. Yes, sir, I know you're Commander-in-Chief, yes sir, yes sir; well, if that's what you want, that's what I'll do. I have always taken orders from the Commander-in-Chief. I'11 do it."

And he turned around and he said, "Alright, Bob, I said I'd go. My hat's in the ring." And he turned around to me and he said, "Now, I've been telling you and Lew Barringer and the rest of that gang that I wanted you to help me from being Vice President, now, I’ve just told the President that I would be a candidate and I don't want to lose. Now go out and work your heads off."

One of the cutest stories in connection with that:

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Lew Barringer had been up there, presumably, to do the same thing that I was and that was to keep him from being Vice President; and we came back and I told Lew the story--he told me in his suite. He picked up the telephone and called--incidentally, Lew had two secretaries from his concern in Memphis and two of the men from his office. And I didn't even know this, because I had been busy--he had signs already made--TRUMAN FOR VICE PRESIDENT and Truman this and Truman that--placards all over. He went out and he had ribbons, and he had TRUMAN FOR VICE PRESIDENT buttons ready. And within an hour they were all over the Stevens Hotel, all over the convention, where the convention was being held. So, he had done about like I did, but he had these placards all made and--I didn't even know it--so, that when he said his hat was in the ring and he did not want to lose--and now to get out and do everything that we could. By that time, there was a tremendous amount of Kansas City people there. Of course, there were a lot

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of delegates. I remember about one of the first things we did was a meeting in the suite--oh my, we were up 18-20 hours a day from then on, and, of course, as you know, the Presidential nomination came first and that was taking a lot of time with nominating speeches and seconding speeches and so forth--not much competition with Mr. Roosevelt, but they went through the, you know, the preliminaries. During which time, with Mr. Truman there, we divided up the various states for his friends to go and see the heads of the delegation and the people that they knew, and, oh, we had a lot of people from Kansas City and St. Louis and all over the country. Then we divided up the various states. I remember that I took, I think, six states. I wanted to pick the easy ones, you know me, I want to take things that are easy. I remember I picked the State of Kansas knowing I wouldn't have any trouble. And my first call was to the room of Carl Rice, the National Democratic Committeeman from the State of Kansas, and a

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delegate, and I think the chairman of the delegation. I've already told you the story of Rice's refusal to help, Later I told Senator Truman and he said, "Well, that's to be expected; he made a million dollars out of politics and he's got manufacturing plants; I've been investigating him and he knows he's crooked and he knows I know it."

So that was one of my first tastes of finding somebody that I thought was a good close friend of Mr. Truman who was bitterly opposed to him.

FUCHS: Had they been friends since…?

EVANS: I suppose they had; I know they used to be, but it did turn out that Mr. Truman was right. He was a lawyer and he had gotten into manufacturing business through foreclosing on one of his clients and took this business and had made a tremendous amount of money. And I think he got a tremendous amount of money after Truman was made Vice President and later President, because many people hired him because they thought he was

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close to Mr. Truman. I knew that happened a lot of times, but in this particular case, why, he couldn't do anything for him at all.

So, from then, we did everything we could to get him nominated. It did look like it was going to be close.

FUCHS: What other states did you select?

EVANS: I had Iowa, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Kansas, and, of course, Missouri was naturally on my list.

During the convention when he was being nominated and seconded, it seems to be a policy (I guess is the word) for a candidate for office not to be on the floor of the convention, although he was a delegate and was entitled to; I remember him saying to Bob Hannegan, "Well, I'm a delegate and I belong out there."

"Well, you're a candidate and you must not be out there."

Well, it was hard for him to understand, but he finally agreed and they sat back in, under the back behind the platform, where Hannegan had an

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office. And I was back there with them a great deal of the time, and out in front to see what was going on, and reporting to both Mr. Truman and Hannegan what was going on, and what was said, and how the various delegations were; and all of our friends were coming to me and giving me the information about how the delegation would go, and I'd give it to Hannegan and Mr. Truman. Then we got down to the voting. I remember that I was on the inside of that room that room that was back and down from the speaker's platform, and I had gotten a little hole made big enough for me to watch, and I had Lew Barringer outside of that telling me what was going on and what the states were doing and as the voting, and that's the only report that Mr. Truman had of the voting going on. The big noise back there was me hollering over to Mr. T. and Mr. H. that this state was all for him or this state was against him. And, as usual, he was the most calm and peaceful man in the whole place. And then, of course, when the final vote

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was in, he was nominated, then they escorted him out, back and around and up onto the platform.

FUCHS: When you went down to the Rules Committee meeting to get Mr. Truman out to take him over to the Blackstone Hotel, do you think he knew what the telephone call was?

EVANS: If he did, he sure didn't tell me, and I didn't know, and I had no idea. I was a little mad at Bob Hannegan insisting that this was an important call to get him out of a Rules Committee. I, frankly, was under the impression myself, that it was Barkley, wanting to talk to him who was there and they were using this as a, so to speak, subterfuge to get Mr. Truman over there. That's why I was mad about it. That was my idea.

FUCHS: Hannegan hadn't told you what the call was. He just said there was an important call.

EVANS: He said it was the most important call that he ever received in his life and he must come over

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here and take it. And I never dreamed that it was President Roosevelt.

FUCHS: After Mr. Truman was nominated, did you come back to Kansas City with him?

EVANS: No, I had flown up to Chicago, Jim, and as I told you, he and Mrs. Truman had driven up in their car and they left and stopped someplace for a couple of days rest, and I flew back to Kansas City. As I remember it, that ten days or two weeks that I was there, I lost seventeen pounds and he gained four. He was doing all the work and the worry and everything--well, I was doing all the worrying, that's right, but he was doing everything else. I lost a lot of weight. So, it was, oh, I guess, I think maybe it was four or five days before he and Mrs. Truman got back.

FUCHS: Did he give you any specific suggestions or instructions for things he asked you to do while you were yet in Chicago?

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EVANS: Oh, yes, he said in Chicago, after he was nominated and we had had our victory celebration, the next day Lew Barringer and I, he had us in, and he said, "Now, I want you Tom, to act as chairman of my campaign, so to speak, campaign manager, and Lew, I want you to be treasurer, take care of the funds; and I want you to put the funds in John Snyder's bank in St. Louis. I want all the checks and contributions to go to Tom, who in turn will send them to you, Lew, and you in turn will send them to John Snyder for deposit in the account. You're not to pay out any funds except on the approval of yourself, Lew Barringer, and Tom Evans. I don't want you to turn over any contributions for deposit to this account without first clearing them with me. In other words, I want to know everybody who contributes, and if for any reason, that I think of, that I don't want to feel obligated to him or anything, I'll tell you not to accept them and to return them."

So, that was the instruction and that was

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the agreement and that's the way we did it. As I would get the checks in, I would prepare a list and sent it to him. Maybe I would call him on the telephone. I know you'll be interested in knowing about the man that promised all the money in Chicago, Herman Shapiro, that we talked about a while ago. Well, I naturally was anxious to get money, because we had a lot of expense. I didn't know how much; I'd never had anything to do with handling a Vice President of the United States political campaign. I handled some presiding judges and some senators and some congressmen and even some mayors, but no Vice President of the United States campaign. I didn't have any idea how much it would cost. So, I wanted to get money as fast as I could and I called Herman Shapiro and told him we were ready for that $25,000. I didn't hear anything for a week. I called him. Finally I received a check from him for $5,000, and so, I, in the course of events, listed that check along with some of the others for Mr. Truman's approval, for deposit to the campaign funds, And

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Mr. Truman called me on the phone and said that he didn't want to accept Herman Shapiro's check. And I said, "Why?"

And he said, "Because he will think that he owns me."

I said, "Well, hell, he'll think he owns you anyway. We've got a lot of expenses coming up, a lot of traveling expenses, radio expense, and need that money so bad." And, I just, so to speak, raised the dickens and he finally said, "Well, alright, go ahead and put it in, but it's against my better judgment."

FUCHS: Why did he think Shapiro would have special demands on him. There were many other...?

EVANS: He knew him; he knew him real well and had had a lot of dealings with him and I, frankly, didn't think that he would, but as usual, he knew him better than I did and knew what the circumstances would be.

FUCHS: What were his dealings with Shapiro, do you know?

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EVANS: Well, he was active in the Pendergast organization, and, as I say, had any number of buildings that he had built, and he just was a man about town and pretty well-known. Well, anyway, I talked the, then, Senator into letting me keep the money. Well, in that campaign, Jim, we didn't have much trouble raising funds. We got plenty of money and as I said, I had no idea of whether I would need $10,000 or $100,000, I had never been through one; so, we got a lot and we had a lot of expense. As you know., I think, Mr. Truman made every state in the Union except five on one tour, beginning down in New Orleans and going over to the former Vice President Garner's home, down in Texas, and across into California and up and across the northern part of the United States, and down through the central part and up into New England and back to Kansas City. And on that trip was a private car (I think I described this before) on which were Senator Truman, Matt Connelly, Ed McKim, Mrs. Evans, and

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myself; and, of course, we had to pay for that transportation and a lot of radio time in various towns and cities and, so, we spent a lot of money, but we raised a lot of money.

FUCHS: What did the Democratic National Committee contribute since he was a national candidate?

EVANS: Well, they paid a lot of the bills and we paid a lot of bills. Just to break it down--what they paid and what we paid is pretty hard to do. As we'd get into these cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Peoria--I well remember that's where the Ku Klux Klan story broke, Peoria, Illinois--the National Committee, picked up the tab in each one of these towns and cities for the hotel, his party, meals, everything.

FUCHS: But they didn't provide for the train, or did they?

EVANS: I think they provided the big part of the transportation, but not for the use of the private

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car and not for some trips that were made. Now, I don’t know why, We paid for some of them, and they paid some of them.

FUCHS: Were you designated as campaign finance chairman and was there an additional campaign manager who handled the itinerary and the political aspects of the campaign?

EVANS: No, I was campaign manager and I handled it with the National Committee. But as campaign manager, I think the biggest job was to raise the funds because Mr. Truman's a pretty good manager of his own of a campaign; he don't need a campaign manager.

FUCHS: You personally coordinated with the National Committee as to their thoughts about itinerary and political strategy and...

EVANS: Right. Then they had a man travel with us quite a bit--George Allen, the man that we talked about that was the first president of the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc.

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FUCHS: Yes. Who were the speechwriters, if there was more than one?

EVANS: The speechwriters were Matt Connelly and Ed McKim, and Mr. Truman doing most of it. And for the early part of the campaign, his old counsel on the committee was on the first half of it--Hugh Fulton. That's all that was ever on there.

Well, anyway, getting back to this fund, I believe we were on Shapiro, weren't we, and I talked him into letting me keep this. Now, the campaign was over and Mr. Truman was elected Vice President and inaugurated, and a short time thereafter, as you know, Mr. Roosevelt passed away and he became President. As near as I remember, it was June of that year--'45. Mr. Truman called Lew Barringer and I into the White House, and we had a substantial amount of cash on hand left over from his campaign. I frankly don't remember the figures, but it's a matter of record. It seems to me like that we (and I'm going by memory

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now), but it seems to me like we raised about $75,000, and that we had about $35,000 in cash after the campaign was over. When we were raising this fund at Mr. Truman's insistence, when we solicited funds by letter, we put in this letter asking for funds for Mr. Truman's campaign as Vice President of the United States and any monies left over to be used to further Mr. Truman's political ambitions. That was in our letter that we put out, at his suggestion. So, as you know, on a Vice President or Presidential campaign, you have to file a complete statement of receipts and disbursements of funds with the Congress. We had to file one showing the receipts and the disbursements, and we had to do it up to a certain date before the election and then another certain date, also before the election. I think that corresponded with various primary campaigns in various states.

FUCHS: You mean you filed two statements prior to the election and then one after?

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EVANS: And then one after. That was neither here or there, but it was in two statements. And we filed our final statement after the election showing cash on hand, let me use the figure of $35,000. I'll go back to the Herman Shapiro story. Mr. Truman called Lew Barringer and I into the White House and he said, "Number one, we've got $35,000 on hand," (if that was the figure) and I'd have to get into my files to verify it--they're out in your Library, by the way--and all of those receipts and disbursements are in those files. Anyway, we'll use the figure of $35,000). He said, "The first thing I want you to do, Tom, is to issue a check to Herman Shapiro and send it back to him."

I said, "What shall I tell him."

He said, "Just don't tell him anything, just send him back his check and tell him we were returning his contribution."

And I said, "Well, why?"

And he said, "Well, because as I told you in the beginning, I didn't want to take it because

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he'll think he owns me, and I sure don't want it now, here on this job," meaning the President of the United States.

And I said, "You're not going to tell him anything, just send it back? Why don't you give back my contribution; why don't you give Eddie Jacobson back his; why don't you give a lot of your friends back theirs if you're going to give Herman; he'll think you're his best friend," and frankly, I was a little upset, Jim, to think that I worked my head off, and Herman Shapiro was going to be bragging around about that the President give him back his money, but he didn't give me back any. And I said, "Why don't you let me take it and tell him why?"

Well, he finally agreed. So Lew Barringer issued the check, because he was treasurer, and sent it to me and I went down to Herman's office and walked in and said, "Herman, President Truman has asked me to deliver this check to you and tell you he's returning your contribution that he

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made for his Vice Presidential campaign for the reason that he thinks you'd take advantage of him, and that you would think that you owned him."

Herman turned white, started to stammer, looked like I might have hit him right square in the mouth. He started to argue and I said, "Don't argue with me, I'm just doing what President Truman told me to do. Here is your check." Then that was the end of it, I thought. Now the peculiar part of that story and it's probably insignificant, but it's an odd story. Oh, I'd judge some sixty days after that, I received a call from a good friend of mine, a Jewish individual, who asked if I would have lunch with he and a couple of men. There was something they wanted to talk to me about. So, I agreed to meet them and we went down to the Union Station and had lunch and visited about many sundry things, particularly about the campaign and the tour of the country, and what a great job Mr. Truman was doing, and one of them said, "By the way, we heard that the President returned Herman Shapiro's contribution

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that he made to his campaign.

I said, "Yes, that’s right. I delivered the check of $5,000 to Herman Shapiro, and told him that the reason I was returning it was that the President didn't want to be embarrassed. He felt that Herman would think that he owned him. That's why it was returned."

"How much?"

I said, "$5,000."

"Is that all he gave"

"Yes, that's all he gave."

"Do you know?"

I said, "Yes, I know, why?"

"Well, we just wondered."

So, we got talking about other things and lunch was over and the men were ready to go and I said, "Why did I come down here to have lunch with you. What did you want me to do?"

"Well, we wanted to find out something and we've already found out."

I said, "Well, what did you find out?"

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He said, "Don't you know?"

I said, "No."

"We wanted to know why the check was returned to Herman Shapiro and also how much was returned, and you told us. That's all we wanted to know."

"Why, what did you want to know for?"

"Well, because there was about thirty of us that contributed $10,000 for Mr. Truman's campaign, and we never got any of the refund and you say you only got $5,000."

I said, "That's all I ever did get."

So apparently our friend Herman Shapiro made $5,000 on the original deal and was going to get away with the $5,000 that was contributed. And I understood later, that these people went to him and he gave them what they originally contributed.

FUCHS: Would you care to say who the gentleman was who called you and who these men were at the lunch, if you recall, of course?

EVANS: Well, yes. I don't know that I remember--

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I don't remember the other one. Isn't that funny, I can't think of this mans name. I'll come back and give it to you in a minute. No, I can't think of it--just a blank there. Two of them were Barney Goodman and George Charno. I knew them.

Then another thing in connection, and this might be a good time to tell the story, because it's quite a matter of record and you've got it in your files, is quite a run in I had with a supposed to be famous news reporter, one Ruth Montgomery. I didn't know who Ruth Montgomery was. She writes a column, I understand, or did write a column (maybe still does) a syndicated column for various newspapers. I was having lunch one time in the Kansas City Club--it seems to me that it was close to Christmas, which would be in the winter of 1945. I'm not sure about my dates, but you can check them, by the way, when I get through with the story, because you've got the information in my files that are in the Library. Anyway, I didn't know who Ruth Montgomery calling

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me long distance from New York was. She made an appointment to come out here and see me. She was doing a story on Mr. Truman. She got out here; I met her, and she was doing a story and she already had her story in this regard: that she had checked the records of the campaign fund of Mr. Truman for Vice President, and (I'm using figures now going by memory) that we had raised an amount of $35,000, and after paying all the expenses of the campaign (we'll use this same figure of $35,000) we had a sum of money left on hand. Ruth Montgomery had checked this and had found that we had this money left on hand what did we do with it. And because we filed a report with Congress, that's all we had to do. It showed all this cash on hand and where was the cash? She wanted to know.

Well, I first told her it was none of her business where it was, and she said, "Well, I know where it was; you gave it to Truman."

I said, "Well, that's not true." We had bitter words, and she was the meanest damn woman

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that I ever saw in my life.

FUCHS: Was this an outgrowth of the Nixon campaign slush fund deal in 1952, that she brought this out?

EVANS: No, this was--I don't remember when it was. Do you remember when her story appeared in the New York Daily News?

FUCHS: My recollection is that the story broke when, of course, Mr. Truman was campaigning for Stevenson in 1952 [Miss Montgomery's story appeared in the early edition of the New York Daily News, October 13, 1952. J. R. Fuchs] and Nixon as a Vice Presidential nominee with Eisenhower was accused of having this slush fund; that then, this Miss Montgomery brought the charges out against Mr. Truman to show that this was the sort of thing...

EVANS: Well, maybe it was. I didn't realize it was that late. I guess that's when it was. You can tell from this newspaper item that I'm going to tell you about, for the matter of record. But anyway, she had checked it and that there was no

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report of this balance on hand or anything being done with it. So either I had pocketed or given it to Mr. Truman, and I must have given it to him because he had paid the mortgage off on his mother's farm, she said, and that that money was used to do that; she knew it. I think you're right. This was probably even after he was out of the White House and trying to show him up for being dishonest. But anyway, what had actually happened was that after the Vice Presidential campaign of '44 was over, this amount was left over and did show in the records, as filed with Congress, as being on hand, less $5,000 returned to a contributor (using the same figure of $35,000) leaving $30,000 cash. I again say, I don't know whether that was the figure or not. And nothing paid out in '47 and nothing in '48; and in 1949 Mr. Truman called Lew Barringer into the office again, and he said, "I want to hire some men to dig up some facts that we can use politically on a lot of things and I want the National Committee to hire

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these people and they will work for the National Committee; but the National Committee does not have any money. I have told them that my campaign fund would pay a certain amount each month over to them that would take care of the salary of these men that I want to do some special investigating work, along political lines, for the National Committee. I, therefore"--this is Mr. Truman talking--"would like to have you, and Lew send 'X' dollars (it seems to me like it was $600 or $700) a month to the National Committee from this fund. I don't want to give it to them all at once or they'll use it for something else--I want it to go to them monthly, and I'd like to have you take the check over." Now you can tell when that was, because J. Howard McGrath was senator and then chairman of the National Democratic Committee.

FUCHS: That was for the '48 campaign, he was chairman then.

EVANS: For the '48 campaign, well, that's when it was. We took it over to his office on the Hill

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in the Senatorial Building and turned over that check for that month, and paid it out each month until the entire sum was gone; and then reports was made each year to the Congress, but little Ruth Montgomery had failed to go beyond 1947, and these were paid out in '48 and '49 and getting ready for the, so to speak, Stevenson campaign. That's what Mr. Truman had in mind. Anyway, her story broke in the New York Daily News, and the headlines in that tabloid section (and you can look it up to quote me right because it's, again, out in your files in my scrapbook) in this very first edition of the New York News was this story, "HST STEALS FUND," as I remember it. And then there was a long story about he and me, his treasurer, connived around and I gave him this money that was left over--whatever that amount was that we talked about. A friend of mine got the first edition--oh, I got a call from Ruth Montgomery, who read me the story after it was on the street, and it was about eleven o'clock at night when the first edition

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came out, as I re.member--it was about nine o'clock our time--and read me this story and I said, "Well, of course it isn't true, and the paper is going to get sued; I'll guarantee you that." I immediately called my attorney, Harry Schwimmer, who got his daughter who lived in New York, to go down and buy four or five of those papers and read them to him; and he called and got the publisher of the New York Daily News on the phone and told them that if that paper continued to print that story that they'd get the biggest damage suit they ever had. When the morning edition, which was the main edition, came out, that story was lifted completely out and a substitute story put in its place. So, all the story that was out was in what they call the "bulldog" edition, about Harry Truman being crooked. Well, the New York daily paper published by a good Democrat--New York Post was told all about it by Harry Schwimmer, who is my attorney--who got the story and they run in this paper a big reproduction of the New York Daily News a story calling Mr. Truman

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a crook and a reproduction of the same edition only a later one where they had lifted the story and put in another story. All of that is in, I believe, my scrapbook. That is in the Library files.

FUCHS: Why do you think he picked Herman Shapiro out of the air like that and wanted you to return his money? Do you think something had occurred that brought it to his attention; I mean, he had a great many things on his mind, having just ascended to the presidency?

EVANS: I am under the impression, Jim--and I don't think President Truman told me this and, therefore, I could be wrong--but I am under the impression that Vivian Truman, President Truman's brother, had had some dealings with Shapiro (I don't know what kind) and that Vivian had told brother Harry that Shapiro was bragging about being the biggest contributor to his campaign, and was nosing it all around and that's why he did this. That's

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my guess; I'm sure President Truman did not tell me. Maybe he did and maybe that's why he did this. That's my guess; I'm sure President Truman did not tell me. Maybe he did and maybe that's where I got it, but at least it's definitely in my mind that it come from Vivian to his brother.

FUCHS: Would $5,000 have comprised the largest single contribution to the campaign?

EVANS: Yes, I don't believe there was any any larger.

FUCHS: What was the limitation, or was there none in 1944 on individual contributions?

EVANS: Well, I think, there was a $5,000 limit as there are now to a political contribution, but it's pretty common knowledge that anybody that wants to contribute more has no difficulty; but Democrats never much have this trouble because they don't have many $5,000 contributors. The Republicans, I find, and I may be a little biased, but I find that they use members of their family. A man will give $5,000,

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his wife will give $5,000, and a couple of sons and two or three daughters give $5,000 apiece. But, I believe there is a limitation of $5,000. So, Herman Shapiro, if he had the $10,000 would have had no trouble giving it in the name of his brother, Julius, or one of his other brothers, if he wanted to give the full ten.

FUCHS: What about this practice, of an individual saying: "Here's my check for so much, but I don't want to list it under my name," and they use, I believe, fictitious names. Now, is that done or, am I wrong, and second, if it is, is it legal?

EVANS: Well, I have in my lifetime many, many contributions given to me by people for various candidates and lots of times have them say, "Here's a check for Dick Bolling's campaign; here's a check for Harry Truman's campaign; here's a check for the Democratic Party, but don't use my name." Well, my policy has always been that if you want to make a contribution to any political campaign and don't

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want your name used, you tell me whose name to put it in, and if you can't give me a name, I won't accept your check. And I always make my records accordingly--$100 check give to me by Jim Fuchs," (my records now I'm talking about) "who wants it listed under the name of Joe Doakes whose address is so and so." That's in my records. Another thing that I've always made it a point--in fact, forty years ago--was a lot of people loved to make political contributions in cash, thinking that their name is not used. When anybody ever gave me a $50 bill or a $100 bill, or cash of any kind and said, "Here, this is for your political campaign," I would say, "I have to have a name. You must give me a name or I can't take it to list it." And as I say, if they didn't give me a name, I'd give it back. Then when they did, my records show that I would put that into my bank account and so list it as $100 cash received from Joe Doakes, contribution to Dick Bolling's campaign. My check, number so-and-so written for this donation."

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And then, I write my check to the Bolling Campaign Committee, even though I'm chairman. The reason I'm reciting that, when Ruth Montgomery had this story, she naturally cleared it with the people at the Kansas City Star and, of course, went ahead and published it in the New York Daily News; and Ira McCarthy, one of the crack reporters for the Kansas City Star came out to see me, and because he was a good friend of mine, and so forth, I proceeded to tell him and show him and pulled out of my files (because I had them--always have had them until I give them to you in the Library) the files exactly on what had happened. How this $5,000 had been returned to Herman Shapiro, I had the cancelled checks for it; I had the letter from Lew Barringer; I had our cancelled check with his signature on it, and a cancelled check for each one of these payments to the National Democratic Committee for this amount of money that Ruth Montgomery was saying that I had given to Mr. Truman so he could pay off the mortgage on his farm. So, they saw that, and these various cash contributions--even

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during that campaign, people gave me cash and I would put it in my account and write a check, and I had a record on it, And then it's amazing when people will say to me, and as you know, I have been chairman of Dick Bolling's campaign for Congressman of the 5th District of Missouri for fourteen years, I guess. Mr. Truman asked me to do it the first time and I've never gotten out of that job yet.

FUCHS: That was in.1948?

EVANS: No, he was against Bolling in '48; it was in '50 he asked me to do it, and I've been doing it ever since. I did it in '48, but he asked me in '50 to do it.

FUCHS: That's what I meant. You have headed his campaign since the first time he ran, which was 1948.

EVANS: That's right, And good friends of mine will say, "Here's a hundred dollar bill for Bolling's campaign. Don't use my name."

"Well, then I can't take it unless you give

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me a name to list it in."

Oh, and almost ninety percent of the time, they'll say, "Oh, I didn't know you had to list them."

"Yeah, sure you do."

"Well, I don't know why; I'm not ashamed of it. Go ahead and list my name."

But on the first impulse, they don't want to do it. I can name you a dozen people. I remember, I think it was two years ago, the man we were talking about at lunch, Henry Talge, gave me a hundred dollars cash for Bolling's campaign and he said, "Don't list my name."

And I said, "Henry, you have to give me a name to list it in. Otherwise I can't take it."

He said, "Well, you provide the name."

I said, "Oh, no, I'm not going to provide any names. I want you to provide it."

He said, "Well, I didn't know you had to list them. Put it in as anonymous:"

I said, "Well, some people do, but I won't."

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"Well, I don't know. If you have to, go ahead and use my name; I'm not ashamed of it; I think Dick's doing a fine job and I want people to know I'm helping him out."

FUCHS: Why is their first inclination many times to not let it be known that they contributed?

EVANS: I don't know. I presume (this is a guess on my part) that they don't want to get on what I call a "sucker list" so they get asked by other people. That's my objection to getting on. I hate to have my name listed as a contributor to a fellow running for--let's say, prosecuting attorney, because that's public and I get on everybody's list and I'm not having any trouble having people ask me for money without advertising.

FUCHS: Are there other reasons?

EVANS: Oh, there might be occasionally. I think there's a lot of people that contribute to both parties. I know lots of businessmen who contribute

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to both parties; in other words, that's what I call playing both sides against the middle. You'd find that in our city campaign here in 1962, there would be contributors to Ike Davis and be contributors to Dutton Brookfield for Mayor--some people, and they were amazed to find that their names are listed in both contributor's lists. Incidentally, if you're interested, the great weekly newspaper the Southside News Press comes out on every Friday, and they're running a list of the contributors to both campaigns--both Davis and Brookfield. That's how I see that there are many of my friends contributing to both parties. Now, I never did that. If I contributed, I contributed to the Democrat candidate regardless of who he was or I didn't contribute.

FUCHS: Now, when you submit a list (I believe it's necessary to do this) to the Congress of, say, Dick Bolling's campaign contributions…

EVANS: Sworn statement.

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FUCHS: ...that does list the individual contributors?

EVANS: Oh, yes.

FUCHS: That would list whatever name they gave you? It wouldn't show that so-and-so gave this in the name of so-and-so?

EVANS: No, it gives the name of whoever they say gave it to me.

FUCHS: You don't have to establish any authenticity for the name they gave you?

EVANS: No, no. Except my records, not the one that's filed, but my records show that if you bring me a check for one hundred dollars and say "Joe Doakes gave this to the Bolling campaign--here's a hundred dollars cash that I got from Joe Doakes and his address is so-and-so," I show it on my records in my file that Jim Fuchs gave me a hundred dollars, contributed by Joe Doakes whose address is so-and-so. So they can come back and

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ask you about this hundred dollars you got and that's your worry, not mine.

FUCHS: What was the upshot then of this Ruth Montgomery charge; did you ever have a talk with her about it or how did Harry Schwimmer decide to...?

EVANS: Well, we never filed suit because they stopped the press, as it shows out there. They didn't run it in the main edition.

FUCHS: Even though it did appear in the limited edition?

EVANS: In the bulldog edition and there were very few of them. I tried like the dickens and that's the only one I could get, the one that you've got out there. You have the original one that come out, in my scrapbook, and then you have the one where the other paper reproduced it in their paper. Do you follow me? You've seen it?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: I have seen her a couple of times and as Mr.

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Truman said, "She never was any good; never will be any good; and don't have anything to do with her." I've since learned that she is the type of reporter that just loves to do controversial things and makes big money doing them.

FUCHS: That's an interesting story.

Going back a little bit, it's been written that Mr. Truman was offered the Democratic National Committee chairmanship, but refused it and recommended Hannegan. This was, of course, prior to the Vice Presidential nomination in 1944. Did you know of that?

EVANS: Yes, it seems to me, Jim, that I did know that he had been offered the chairmanship.

FUCHS: You don't recall talking it over with him, though?

EVANS: Yes, that's how I would know it. He, very casually, mentioned the fact that they had called on him and wanted him to take it or offered it to him, and my recollection is that he said, "I'm

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just too busy. I just can’t do it. I've got too much to do on this investigating committee; I just can’t do it." And he said, at the time, the reason it's fresh in my mind, "I recommended a fine young man who I want you to know, Tom, Bob Hannegan." I didn't know who Bob Hannegan was at the time. It seems to me some time later I met Bob in Washington. Now that must have been--he was still Senator--I believe before his second term, but I have no way of knowing the date. But it was nothing except that he'd just been offered that. Just like, after he was out of the presidency he casually mentioned the fact that he'd been offered $100,000 a year as chairman of the board of some big company. He said, "I wouldn't take it for a million if it was tax free, because I'm not going to sell the office." Arid that's all there was to it; I mean when he makes a statement, that's the end of it. He's always been that way, so it wasn't of importance.

FUCHS: Ed Pauley, and Hannegan, more or less, after

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January, 1944 were said to have been campaigning for Mr. Truman as a potential Vice President; and Mr. Truman was supposed to have met in San Francisco at the end of March with Pauley and Sam Rayburn. I believe Harley Kilgore and Mon Wallgren were also there at the time. Do you recall talking to him about that meeting? You see, that was fairly early in the year?

EVANS: Yes, I remember him just, again, saying very casually when these reports were coming in about him being a good candidate for Vice President (you know, that we talked about), that he had met with a group--when he was on a fishing trip I thought, up in Mon Wallgren's country--(maybe it was California)--who had urged him to be a candidate; and he told them, "Absolutely not, I'm happy where I am." The reason that that sticks, out in my mind--he's the one that said (I don't know whether I can quote it) "Ask a dozen people who the Vice President was in any year and they can't any of them

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tell you. If I took the job, I'd have to make it an important one and I haven't got time to do that." And that was about his story, but he did it more in jest, not serious. But he did mention the fact that Ed Pauley had urged him to do it and I'm sure it did take place.

FUCHS: There's a story you have told about Mr. Truman, regarding the vice presidency being just a heartbeat away from the presidency. When did that take place?

EVANS: Well, I don't know as I can tell you, but I well remember that statement, because it sort of scared me to realize that that's right. It seems to me that that took place the day after the convention in Chicago when he was nominated. That's my impression--when we were getting ready and people were leaving and sort of relaxed and everything, that it is an important job because you're only a heartbeat away from the presidency.

FUCHS: You didn't think he was expressing special

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concern over President Roosevelt's health at that time?

EVANS: No, I'm sure he was not. It was just a statement of fact that the Vice President of the United States is only a heartbeat away from the President of the United States. I remember another little incident now--funny how this comes back to me. We were sitting around and Mrs. Truman was there, and he said, "Well, when I'm elected, do you know what they call me? They call me 'Mr. President."'

And she said, "Why, Harry, you know better than that. They don't call you 'Mr. President,' you're only a Vice President if you're elected."

"You just don't know what you're talking about, The presiding officer of the Senate is called Mr. President.' I'll be called 'Mr. President."'

FUCHS: That's right.

EVANS: I well remember that, and frankly he seemed rather elated at the idea of being called "Mr.

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President," and, as you see in my correspondence, I thought nothing of calling him, in writing him a letter, "Dear Harry," when he was Senator. But at no time, not once to my knowledge have I ever called him anything except "Mr. President," since he became President of the United States. I just think he's entitled to that honor. And when I say "Mr. President," even today, I think of that statement that he made up in Chicago a day or two after he was nominated, when he told Mrs. Truman that they'd have to call him Mr. President when he was Vice President.

FUCHS: He was quite confident of being elected Vice President, of course?

EVANS: Yes.

FUCHS: I don't want to assume that he was confident--you would say that he was?

EVANS: He was confident; I wasn't, but he was. He's always confident when he's running for office.

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FUCHS: You had some feeling that Roosevelt might be defeated in 1944?

EVANS: Well, Jim, I always run scared; I find it pays. Yes, I was really scared. I had worked terribly hard on this--neglected my business and made this long trip and raised the money. I was so scared, if you really want to know the truth about the '44 campaign--we were in a little town in West Virginia (I'm sorry I can't tell you the name) where we were staying all night. I well remember it because they had a parade and they had more white horses than I ever saw in my life in this parade for Mr. Truman, who was on the campaign tour. And I become so scared that--why I had practically given up him being elected. As far as I was concerned, I figured he'd lost every state in the United States...

FUCHS: Now are you thinking of '48 or '44?

EVANS: '44--Vice President. I had given up the fact that he was--that's just how pessimistic I was--

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that I got on the telephone in this town in West Virginia and called KCMO, my radio station, and got the manager on the phone and told him that the following Saturday night, he was going to close his campaign at the Latter Day Saints Church in Independence, and that I wanted them to buy a station all over Missouri, because I sure didn't want to lose Missouri; and he bought and we paid for out of funds, the stations in St. Louis, Springfield, Joplin, St. Joseph, Hannibal, and Columbia, Missouri. And my manager of the station at that time, said I told him, "Gosh, I don't think we'll carry any other state, but I don't want to lose Missouri." So that's how pessimistic I was, but everybody else seemed to be sure.

FUCHS: Why did you seem to feel that Mr. Roosevelt couldn't come through again in '44?

EVANS: Well, in those days I was inclined to worry, and I think probably, I was too close to the picture. We sure booked the radio stations.

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FUCHS: I believe you went to the formal notification ceremonies at Lamar in August. Do you have any recollections of that event and of Mr. Sam Wear who presided there?

EVANS: Yes, I was right there. About the outstanding thing of that event in Lamar that sticks in my mind was that Mother Truman was quite old, and she was there. And her eyes were bad and they had her in a car pulled up close to the speaker's stand and they had all these lights and everything shining down, and I came up and I said, "Mother Truman, it's Tom Evans," and shook hands with her.

She said, "I wish you'd get those people to take those damn lights out of my eyes; I can't see anything."

I got the biggest kick out of that.

FUCHS: What was Mr. Truman's relationship with Sam Wear? When did he become acquainted with him?

EVANS: Well, Sam was a good old Democratic worker in and around Springfield, and he was, you know, United States Attorney here in Kansas City. When was he appointed, do you know?

[404]

FUCHS: I believe it was after Mr. Truman became President.

EVANS: Well, he'd known him in...you see, it's been traditional for the so-called Pendergast "Goats" to go in a body to Springfield on Jackson Day every year. I used to go down there thirty-forty years ago and that was his home town. It just seems to me like I've known Sam Wear...lots of fine Democrats come from down there. Dan Nee, whom you've heard of--he came from Springfield. It seems like Dan Nee, Sam Wear, a man by the name of Harry Chinn (that's a peculiar name), who was quite active--seems like I've known them all of my political life, and that's the way Mr. Truman was.

FUCHS: Just good party workers.

EVANS: Yes, and Sam was an outstanding lawyer and chairman of his--and I believe almost always a delegate to the National Convention.

FUCHS: What about Dan Nee?

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EVANS: Dan Nee along the same lines; he was an attorney and an active worker. You know, he was candidate for governor at one time. He was defeated in the primary, but he was a candidate.

FUCHS: Did you say "Hiram Chinn?"

EVANS: Harry Chinn. He was a great political worker--a friend of Mr. Truman's.

FUCHS: I believe there was a Mary Chinn who married, I think it was Henry Chiles from Lexington. Do you know of him?

EVANS: I know who he is, yes. And I'm inclined to think that that's some relation of this Chinn in Springfield--I'm almost sure it is, but I don't know the connection.

FUCHS: You related a story one time about Mr. Truman on the campaign--coming out and having a drink one evening in his bathrobe.

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EVANS: Oh, that was in Boston. There were thousands of incidents on that campaign, but I think what you're thinking about--we were in Boston staying all night at the hotel, and of course, he had made seven or eight or ten speeches that day and a gigantic, big speech that night in a packed auditorium where former Mayor Curley spoke. You've heard of him--one of the greatest orators I've ever heard. I'd defy anybody to listen to him without tears coming to their eyes. Remember, he was the man who served a term in the penitentiary. He was the guest speaker that night, I know that, but that's beside the point. We came back--all of us--just worn out completely because we'd traveled all over New England in the caravan making speeches. Of course, Mr. Truman made speeches, not me, but I was doing most all the worrying. But he always said I was his official worrier and did a good job. Anyway, we came back to the hotel and wanted him to get to bad and get some rest.

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As you know, Mrs. Evans was traveling with us--the only woman--just Mrs. Evans, myself, Ed McKim and Matt Connelly, and the President. That's all that was there. So we got him off in his room to bed, and we had a living room and off of the living room was Mrs. Evans' and my room, and off across the hall was Matt Connelly and Ed McKim's room. So Ed McKim, Matt Connelly, and Mrs. Evans and I were just having a sociable drink and talking over the events, and there was always a lot to talk about, you know; and we were having a good time--I expect we had two or three drinks, and we heard a door open and a little bit of a tiny knock and looked up and there was Mr. Truman. He had on his pajamas and an old faded bathrobe and he said, "Oh, please let me come in and join the party."

And we told him that he was supposed to rest, But he did, he came in and had a drink and sat around for a few minutes and then went back to bed. We found out we were disturbing him so

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we went to bed, too. I think I told you this before and you may have it recorded, but Mrs. Evans now gets quite a kick out of the fact that she finally got up and took him by the arm and led him back and said, "Well, we’ll all go to bed; you must get your rest; we've been disturbing you." And she found his socks hanging up drying and he'd washed them, and she just gave him the dickens. She said, "After this, I'll wash your socks." And she did from then on. Every night she'd wash out his hose for him and he'd been doing it himself all the time on the trip.

FUCHS: On the trip, did you sleep on the train, or was it always in a hotel?

EVANS: No, we slept on the train a good deal of the time, depending--oh, I suppose, this is a rough guess, but about half the time we slept on the train. When there were long trips we slept on the train. When we came down from Boston to New York, there's where we had the big rally where I

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think I have told you, that it was a big rally in Madison Square Garden. That's where Mr. Wallace, who was then Vice President, was supposed to walk into the hall with Mr. Truman and--I lost another three or four pounds that night worrying--it got time for the rally to start, and the place was packed full of people and thousands jamming outside and loudspeakers out on the walk, and no Wallace. And Mr. Truman said, "Well, let's go on without him." And there was all kinds of members of the National Committee and they couldn't understand it, and they couldn't go without him and, finally, about five minutes after he was supposed to be on, why, in he come. And we, of course, got him and he marched in with Mr. Truman and up on the platform; and his excuse was that he needed a little air and he had plenty of time and he walked, and he got into this big traffic jam and couldn't get in. That's why he was late. What was the question you asked--I got off?

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FUCHS: About whether you had slept on the train or not?

EVANS: Yes, then we had this big rally in New York and it was midnight when it was over; and we went down and got on--we had been there for two nights at the Waldorf Astoria--but after this we went down and got on the train and then went over to Washington. We got there early in the morning, I think about four-thirty, and, I know, I woke up and here was Mr. Truman all dressed and waiting. I had breakfast with him at five o'clock, and Mrs. Truman and Margaret were there to meet us, and then, they joined us there and they come back to Missouri on the train with us.

FUCHS: Are there any other incidents you recall about the campaign trip that stand out in your mind?

EVANS: There's so many of them, Jim, that it's hard--and I tell them to people; I tell them to you; I tell them to Dr. [Philip C.J Brooks, and then I forget whether you've got them recorded or not. Like the main job I had on the campaign trip was

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a very important one. You know we had this special car on the back of a regular scheduled train and you'd be amazed in traveling over the country, these little small towns where the whole town would be there to see the candidate for Vice President as he went through, and he was supposed to be on the back platform and wave, and that was a pretty dirty place to be with a train going through 60-70 miles an hour, and the cinders and the dirt flying; and being gray-headed like Mr. Truman and wearing glasses like Mr. Truman, well, it was my job to go out (and they couldn't tell whether it was him or who standing on the back platform of that car) and wave at them. So that was my big job on the trip. Mr. Truman admits that I saved him a lot of cinders and a lot of dirty anyway. I've been that much help to him.

Then, of course, when we got to Peoria, Illinois, the news broke--about the Ku Klux Klan story and Mr. Truman being a member. Harry Hoffman started it and that's where it came from,

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from him, but it shook the whole universe except one man--Mr. Truman wasn't a bit worried. That night we stayed at the hotel, I'11 tell you, the phones rang all night, and members of the National Committee and high-powered Democrats running for various offices throughout the country, they was scared it was going to ruin them and oh...

FUCHS: What did they expect to accomplish by calling?

EVANS: Well, to find out if it was true, and what we were doing to offset it; and what kind of publicity we were going to get out, and how often would Mr. Truman mention it, and had he ought to mention it? Oh, God, just all kinds of things. Anytime anybody had an idea that would save them a vote, they'd call.

FUCHS: Do you recall any specific persons calling?

EVANS: Oh, no. All we could do was to take the calls one right after another--just one right after another.

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FUCHS: Were the other members of the campaign crew there quite exercised about it, such as Matt Connelly and Ed McKim?

EVANS: Yes, they were exercised about it because it made a tremendous amount of work. They were preparing the speeches for him and changing them all around, and they were four or five ahead all the time and, boy, they got four or five behind, because they all had to be changed, you know, to bring something in. I don't remember who it was, but the National Committee flew somebody out to meet us there to help on that. There just wasn't anything to it and as I say, everybody was nervous and excited about it, except Mr. Truman; it didn't bother him any.

FUCHS: Did the National Committee send suggestions for speech material to you?

EVANS: Yes, quite often. You see, as we were traveling throughout the country, you picked up the

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member of the National Democratic Committee in each state, not every time, but often the Democrat would get on. The chairman of the State Democratic Committee would usually ride the train across, say, Kansas, He'd get to Missouri and in Missouri why the Missouri state chairman would get on. Sometimes, if that state was a Democratic administration and the governor was a Democrat, why, we'd have the governor ride part way across the state; and they would make the suggestions to incorporate various things in his speeches. That's usually where they come from.

FUCHS: They do that on the Presidential train, of course, too.

EVANS: Presidential and Vice Presidential both.

FUCHS: Did the National Committeemen of the states frequently get on?

EVANS: Oh, yes, that's what I say. Either the National

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Committeeman or the governor, if he happened to be a Democrat, and many times both of them, and a lot of times, a Republican governor would ride with him. I was trying to think who the Republican governor was who rode across with him. I know Mr. Truman always appreciated it--I can't remember who it was. It seems to me it was North or South Dakota, but I can't remember who it was.

FUCHS: I was thinking of the differentiation between a chairman of a state Democratic committee--I guess they would call it the State Central Committee--and the National Committeemen. Are they the same individual?

EVANS: No, no. Very seldom do you have the chairman ride the train. He would come down, like the chairman of the Jackson County Democratic committee would come down, but the National Committeemen would ride the train along with the governor, if he was Democratic.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything of an investigation

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that the Republican National Committee made in Kansas City after he was nominated and became fair game for all their...

EVANS: I don't know what you mean--investigation? I know that they traveled, a group of members, to listen to his speeches and then immediately they'd sit down and write offsetting ones. That isn't what you mean?

FUCHS: No, I'm glad to know of that, but there was...

EVANS: The "truth squad" they called those.

FUCHS: Did Mr. Truman ever have any cogent remarks about that, that you recall?

EVANS: Yes, off the cuff. None that I can think to quote, but I remember laughing at a lot of them. There was four or five of them, and then the minute the speech was over they'd get together and then they'd release it over the news media. That's been done often.

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FUCHS: Oh, yes. What I have reference to, was a letter in our files that was written to Mr. Truman by a friend of his in Kansas City referring to an investigation in which Henry Ess, a lawyer for the Kansas City Star, helped. One in which the Republicans evidently sent people here to see what they could dig up about the Pendergast connection or any other thing that might be to the detriment of Mr. Truman and which could be used to their advantage in combating his Vice Presidential candidacy? I thought perhaps you knew something of that?

EVANS: If I did I have forgotten it, because we were so used to things like that, that that didn't mean very much, Henry Ess, I know intimately, was the general counsel for the Kansas City Star, and it sounds like one of his jobs that he would attempt to do. I know they had all kinds of people in here uncovering things that he did, which was not hard to uncover because Mr. Truman

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never hid them. Like when he came back for Mr. Pendergast's funeral, It was no secret but everybody thought that was going to ruin him and a lot of his friends.

FUCHS: Did you think it was the thing for him to do, at the time?

EVANS: Did I personally think so?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: Well, I think if I had been advising him, I would have been selfish enough to say "no," but I'm glad he came, now.

FUCHS: Do you recall a testimonial dinner for Mr. Truman at Joplin, Missouri?

EVANS: No, I don't. I think you or someone asked me about that. After he was in the White House or...

FUCHS: Well, we have an undated document (I believe, it's a program of this dinner), which Mr. Truman told his secretary to file, because it was "something

[419]

that had never been done before in Joplin, Missouri"--a testimonial for a senator of the state.

EVANS: No, I get it confused with a meeting in Joplin of the State Democratic Committee, held in Joplin, I don't know when. It probably was 1934, '35 or '36, and I was there at that meeting, Mr. Truman was there; Charlie Regan, who was then city clerk (he's now passed away); and many other local Democrats, of course, were at that meeting, and there was a big dinner. Mr. Truman was honored at that dinner. Let's see, he was elected Senator for the first time in '34--well, this must have been after, because he was honored, otherwise he wouldn't have been so honored. And I had forgotten all about that, but Charlie Regan, who was a wonderful guy and a great Democrat, and a great friend of Mr. Truman's, was city clerk for many years, a great Pendergast Democrat. I think he had eleven or twelve children, and three of his boys run an eating place down on Southwest

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Boulevard at Central Street and have for about twenty years. Charlie, incidentally, has been dead a good many years, and three of his boys run this bar and restaurant. In fact, Mrs. Evans and I eat down there an average of maybe twice a month; and we love the boys and it's a wonderful thing to see three brothers in a business getting along together, and while they're not getting rich, they're doing real well and it's a lovely place. In the boys' office are political pictures, and one night they took me back and here is this picture of this Democratic meeting in Joplin where Mr. Truman, Charlie Regan, and myself, and everybody that was there, and I guess maybe the date is on it. I found one of these pictures and am giving it to the Library. But that's the only thing I think of in Joplin--"Democratic State Convention, the date, Joplin, Missouri."

FUCHS: Well, that brings us down to 1945 and the purchase of Mr. Truman's farm probably could be elaborated on here. Can you tell me your recollections

[421]

of that whole incident?

EVANS: Well, Jim, about all I remember about it and, of course, here's some copies of correspondence that you got out of my files in the Library, that we could get dates from, but I remember it this way. Charlie Curry called me, and it must have been early in 1945--from going over this correspondence--stating that the Truman farm was about to be sold by the holders of the mortgage, and that he wondered if I would like to join in with a group to buy the farm and if at some later date Mr. Truman wanted to buy it back, that we would sell it to him. I remember Charlie Curry saying to me, "I don't see how we can lose any money on it because the farm ought to be worth enough money to take care of what we would pay for it." And I'm curious as to (in hurriedly looking over these papers) how little was involved at that time, because I remember, and here's a letter dated February 28, 1945, where I sent to Mr. Curry

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my check for $2,000 in payment of my share of the purchase on the Truman farm. I don't know what my share was, but looking down here at the statement as prepared by Mr. Curry, dated May 4, 1946, apparently the sale price on the 287 acre farm was $23,500.

FUCHS: Would that have been for the smaller portion of the farm?

EVANS: I don't know; it might have been. But anyway, I remember very distinctly that Charlie Curry...

FUCHS: I believe that was for 80 acres.

EVANS: That may be. I see here is a letter addressed to me and signed by Charlie Curry: "This is to certify that I hold in my box a deed from E. G. Houston conveying title to the South One-half (1/2) of the Southwest Quarter (1/4) of section Twelve (12) in the Northwest quarter (1/4)" and blah, blah, blah--all of that--"in Jackson County Missouri, subject to utility rights-of-way of record, subject

[423]

to an encumbrance of Thirteen Thousand Dollars. In the conveyance an undivided one-fifth interest..." Well, my $2,000 bought a one-fifth interest, and assumed a mortgage of $13,000. So, it would be $23,000, and I remember--here's a map showing the description which you...

FUCHS: I got those out of atlases.

EVANS: And I remember that he just said, "I don't see how it's possible for us to lose any money, and if Mr. Truman does not want to buy it back in the future I believe we can make a substantial amount of money on it. But," he said, "my purpose is that I would like to buy it and hold it back when he can, if he wants to."

So, as you will note from my letter, I must have been out of town, because I see my secretary sent Mr. Curry the check, I guess the check was good, it never came back--don't see anymore about it. Oh, yes, it says here that I am in Mayo's for a throat operation.

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FUCHS: You had trouble with your throat about that time when Mr. Truman...

EVANS: Yes, this letter says here--my secretary sent my check for $2,000 and said, "As you no doubt know, Mr. Evans had another throat operation at Mayo's last week from which he is recovering slowly. This operation has been identical to his first operation last December and his doctor says he came back to work too soon after the first and used his voice entirely too soon and too much."

Well, I came back from the 1944 campaign and my throat was terrible. I'd be talking and my voice would trail off where nobody could hear me, and the doctor found that I had a growth on my vocal cords. He operated on it and removed it, which he thought sure would be malignant and that I would lose my vocal cords. It was non-malignant and I got along all right, except tha--actually what happened was that I went back to the inaugural

[425]

of President Roosevelt and Vice President Truman and just having been out of the hospital a short time and on the promise of my doctor that I wouldn't get around in crowds, and that I wouldn't talk too much, and I wouldn't get out in the weather, I went. I did absolutely contrary, because I attended all the cocktail parties in the smoke filled rooms where there were crowds of people talking, and I went to the inaugural which was on the White House lawn and it was one of the few days that it snowed. I got soaking wet and it was a terrible trip; and I came back and my voice was gone again and my doctor here wouldn't touch me and took me to Mayo's. They took one look at it and said the growth was back there, because I had gotten out and overdid myself too soon and an operation was immediately necessary; and they felt sure that it was malignant, and they would like to do it and test it right there, and they did and it was not malignant. And they told me for four weeks I'd

[426]

have to remain absolutely quiet and not use my voice in any manner, shape, or form. As a result of that I have a raised place that I call a "corn" on my finger, because I still wanted to talk and I couldn't, so I wrote everything and I got a "corn" on my finger. I don't know how anybody read it, I'm sure a poor penman. But anyway, Mr. Roosevelt died, and my friend Mr. Truman became President. And I couldn't talk; I was home but unable to talk; I could write but I couldn't say anything, couldn't talk on the telephone or anything. And, of course, as Mr. Truman said, the heavens and the stars fell on his shoulders and certainly, my place would have been there with him to help him in his difficulty, because it was a most difficult time as you can well imagine. But I couldn't be there; I couldn't talk, I guess it was the greatest thing that could possibly happen. The Old Boy up above has ways of taking care of people, because if I had of been well, I would have been there and I would have probably

[427]

wound up on a job in his administration. The reason I say that I was lucky is described as follows: It so happened that Ed McKim, who was overseas with him and on the campaign tour, was there when this happened, and he was with him when he went over and was sworn in as President, and he became his Administrative Assistant. I'll get back to Ed McKim in a minute, because it will tie into this story which will explain why I say it's a good thing I wasn't there or I would have wound up in his administration. That evening, after Mr. Truman had been sworn in as President of the United States, which is probably the biggest thing that ever happened to one individual in the world--that quick--he went back to his little apartment; and the telephone rang at my home and Mrs. Evans answered it and it was Mr. Truman. He took time in the greatest time of his life to call me and say to Mrs. Evans, "Well, I know Tom well enough to know that he'd want to be right here with me and there isn't anybody I'd rather have with me than him,

[428]

but I know that I'm the one that caused this throat trouble in the beginning on the campaign tour--he worked too hard, then he came back and he got wet and cold. It's all my fault, and I'm not going to be at fault again."

And she said, "Well, Mr. President,"--I don't believe she called him "Mr. President" then, because she was so excited--but anyway she said, "Well, of course, Tom can't talk but I'm going to put him on the extension because he's just dying--he's found out that it's you." So I got on the phone and I couldn't say anything because they had me scared to death. And he said, "Now, I just want to tell you one thing. You are not to come back to Washington until I give the orders. I want you to know that I've got plenty of power now and if you don't do as I tell you to do, you're going to be in all kinds of trouble, because I've got lots of power, and I want you to understand that as President of the United States, my first job is to tell you, 'Don't you dare come to Washington."' Well,

[429]

I couldn't even answer him. My wife she had to cry and say "thank you so much," (I think she called him "Senator," I'm not sure); and he said, "Now, I want you to keep him there and don't you let him come and, Tom, I know you're listening, you don't dare come back here until I give you my word to come."

So I stayed. May 8 was his birthday and on the evening of May 7th, late, he called home and I was able to talk on the phone. He asked for my wife and they got her on the phone and she told me it was the President calling, and he said, "I want to ask you, how's Tom?"

She said, "Well, he's doing pretty well. He's behaved himself; he hasn't talked any and he's able to talk to you."

"Well," he said, "that's fine, Do you think he's able to come back to Washington?"

"Well, I think if he don't, he's going to die with a heart attack."

He said, "Let me talk to him."

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"How would you like to come back here tomorrow for my birthday? We're having a little birthday party here at the White House, and it's going to start at two o'clock and I told them I'd like to have you there, but I wanted to talk to Mamie Lou to find out whether or not you were able to come back and she says you are."

I said, "I'll be there."

So, I left early in the morning by plane, and we had plane trouble and I didn't get there at the White House until four o'clock--it started at two. In the first place--well, I had been in the White House once before, but as a guest of a number of people and Mr. Roosevelt was expecting me, so I had no trouble getting in; but here I walked up to the gate and told them I was supposed to be there at the White House--I had an awful time getting in. Finally they found out who I was and took me in, and for the first time I walked into Mr. Truman's office--the party was all over and most everybody had gone--but anyway, I walked into the

[431]

White House office and he said, "Well, it's too bad you missed the party but I'm glad you're here. Anyway, I've been saving this for you," and he reached down in his desk and pulled open a drawer and set out a quart bottle (not a fifth) of good bourbon, and he and I both had a drink in his desk in the White House to celebrate his birthday. The next evening I was a guest over at the private quarters for dinner with he and Mrs. Truman and Margaret.

Getting back to Ed McKim--that the Old Boy up above has ways of taking care of things and he certainly was taking care of me. Ed was with the President when he was notified and was with him when he took his oath of office, and he became Administrative Assistant. Ed and I were close, intimate, friends, and, of course, Matt Connelly was there with him, too, and we had been with him on the campaign tour and were close intimate friends. So, I had a nice visit with the President, just like always; he acted just like he always had,

[432]

and, of course, after being so ill with a bad throat, why, I was delighted to see him and all the problems. I was probably with him an hour, which I'm sure was much too long to be bothering the President of the United States, but I was new at the game at that time; I finally got out of his office, and I said to Connelly, "Where is Ed's office?" He'd been made, as I say, his Administrative Assistant. And he told me, and so I went around to see him and told his secretary who I was. I had to wait quite a while to get in. The President didn't keep me waiting, but Ed did; and I finally got in and we started visiting, and I could see that Ed was out of this world--he wasn't even in it--he was way up--you know, just floating, I could tell; he didn't have time for me. And I said (it was then after five o'clock, almost five-thirty) and I said, "Ed, how about having dinner with me tonight?"

And he said, "Oh, Tom, I just can't do it; I'm getting ready to get in my evening clothes;

[433]

I've got to go over here to a reception--that's the trouble with this job; a man just never has any time for himself; you've got so many obligations and..."

And I said, "Ed, you know who I am; I'm Tom Evans. Don't give me any of that stuff," And I offended him. He had to get in his evening clothes. I stood there while he got in his tails. I don't think he ever had a pair of tails on before in his life, but I could see that, oh boy, he was terribly hard-hit with what I later heard the President call "Potomac Fever." I'm sure you've heard that expression. So, I said, "Well, if you can't tonight, how about tomorrow?"

"Tom, I'm booked solid for the next month; I just haven't got a chance to be with you; I'm just sorry but that’s the way things are."

Well., Matt Connelly came over and had dinner with me, and he said, "Well, Ed's got it pretty bad," So, when I was with the President I said "Well, Mr. President, I know you've got your

[434]

problems, but it looks to me like one of your big problems is going to be Ed McKim. He's gone high-hat on us."

And he said, "Are you telling me. I know it; I don't know what to do about it."

And I said, "Well, the greatest thing that ever happened to me was that I wasn't able to be here because I don't ever want to be in Washington. This life would kill me. What are you going to do about Ed?"

He said, "I don't know."

A short time after--another trip to Washington--I don't know how long it was, I remember I went to see the President and he said, "I've got some news for you."

I said, "Good, what is it?"

He said, "Well, you were right. Ed McKim had probably the worst case of "Potomac Fever" that I've ever seen, and what to do with him I don't know, but I'm kicking him upstairs. I'm sending him to (Ed was a Catholic) Rome on a special

[435]

mission with the Pope and that's quite an honor, and when he comes back there won't be any place in the White House:" And he hasn't been there since. That's the way he had of doing it. So, I say, the best thing in the world that ever happened to me was that I wasn't there.

I can think of so many, many things that happened. Once (and if I told this, you stop me), it was when Mother Truman was quite ill and the President was out here often; and, as I had said before, I'm sure that when he was here, the White House staff depended entirely on me in Kansas City, because they didn't know who should see Mr. Truman and who shouldn't, and I took over and everybody just depended on me. And from the time the President and his group arrived in Kansas City until he left, I was not at home at all; I spent all my time with him or his staff at the penthouse. So anyway, I received a call at home one night from--I can't recall who it was. Anyway, the conversation was about like this: "A large group of the

[436]

President's friends have met and there is a gigantic job to be done and we have looked the world over and have found that you're the only one that the President has confidence in, that is capable and qualified to do this job." This man, I truly have forgotten who it was, it's a shame to say it, but who ever it was was the head of some gigantic concern. And I said, "Well, I can't believe that I'm the only man that's qualified."

"Well, believe me that it is. I'd like to know how soon you'd come back to meet with the group and go over this, because this is one of the most important jobs to our country. It will require traveling all over the world, and it must be somebody that the President has confidence in, which is you. It's a job which you can't turn down, because it's too vital and important to your country,"--oh, the biggest line I ever heard, Jim. Well, the last thing I ever wanted was a job in Government, and the next to the last thing I wanted was traveling. I don't like to travel; I wish I did, I wish I could

[437]

like some of my friends, but I just hate to travel. And of course, I'm pretty egotistical, but not egotistical enough to know that I'm the only guy in the world that can do this great job and the country's going to hell if I don't take it. But, nevertheless, I'm being asked, and I'm supposed to be back in Washington within the next twenty-four hours, because this just won't wait. I finally broke off the conversation with the gentlemen, "Look, you know, the President is here on account of the illness of his mother and I'll talk to the President about it."

So, I went to Matt Connelly and told him what had happened. And he said, "Well, you'll have to talk to him."

And I said, "God, I don't want to talk to him; he may tell me I have to take the job and, Matt, if he does, I'll just die; I can't do it."

He said, "Well, you got to talk to him."

I said, "Well, you talk to him."

He said, "Well, we'll both go in and talk

[438]

to him together."

This was in the penthouse in the suite in the Muehlebach Hotel. So, sometime later Matt got the President in and he motioned for me to come in and shut the door. I went in and I remember Mr. Truman saying, "How you doing, Tom?"

And I said, "Fine."

He said, "What you got on your mind?"

And I said, "Go ahead, Matt."

Matt said, "You go-ahead."

I said, "No, you're going to talk for me."

And he said, "No, go ahead, and talk for yourself."

And the President spoke up and he said, "Well., when in the hell did you get so you were bashful to talk to me? What's going on here. Come on, out with it."

So, I said, "Well, Mr. President, I got a call,"--then I knew the man's name--"from so-and-so who told me that I was the only man qualified to do this great job that the whole nation was

[439]

depending on me to do, and that they had checked the whole world and that I was the only man left, and that they wanted me to do this job and that you wanted me to do this job."

And he said, "That's a damn lie; I wouldn't under any circumstances have you to do it and I'll tell you why. It would kill you; you couldn't do it; I know you too well. You'd worry yourself sick in thirty days. I wouldn't have it under any circumstances, I think too much of you."

I just got right up and walked right over and kissed him right square on the cheek. So, he said, "You know the trouble is, these friends of mine mean all right, but they try to go out and find somebody that I know, that I like, and that I'm close to and that I have confidence in, and then they come to me and think they're sucking in with me by recommending one Tom Evans. This happens all the time. Under no circumstances would I have you have the job; you just forget it."

And I said, "Thank God," and walked out.

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FUCHS: Do you know what the job was?

EVANS: Yes, I learned later that it was the job that--the Marshall Plan--that General Marshall. took, spending the money for the aid of foreign countries and the President, as usual, was a hundred percent right.

Did we record about the University of Chicago and the atomic energy?

FUCHS: No. That's one thing I saw some correspondence about and I would like to go into that.

EVANS: Well, it's a tremendous, long story. I thought we had recorded it.

FUCHS: No, we didn't. I'd like to hear it all.

EVANS: I'11 tell you as I remember it today, before my memory goes bad. Within the week after President Roosevelt passed away and Mr. Truman became President, my lawyer received a call from a man at the University of Chicago, stating that he would like to come down and see him on an

[441]

important matter. He came down to see my lawyer, Harry Schwimmer, and said that he was with the University of Chicago, and that they were in the midst or process of handling a gigantic undertaking for President Roosevelt; that nobody knew anything about what they were handling and it was one of the deepest, darkest secrets; and that there was only, one other man who knew anything about it besides President Roosevelt, and he was their contact. Now President Roosevelt had died and they had checked over the new President's (Mr. Truman's) friends, and I appeared to be one of his closest friends; and they would like to bring the Chancellor of the University, plus several other men, down to see me to talk to me about this, which must be in the strictest of confidence, because it was probably the biggest secret in the history of the world. Harry Schwimmer tried to find out what it was, but did not succeed, The more he dug, the more mysterious it got and he had to wind up by saying,

[442]

"Well, Mr. Evans is just getting over a throat operation, which is the second one in three months, and he's unable to talk and his doctor will not let anyone see him, including me," which was true, because I had had a bad time. And he said, "There isn't anything I can do until such time that the doctor releases him," and he explained my situation. So, about the time the doctor had released me and allowed me to use my voice in a small way (and as you know my voice is very heavy and the doctor urged me to talk in a whisper for a week), I was in no position to visit with these men. Harry Schwimmer talked to me and I didn't get too excited about it, but I agreed that I would see them. In the meantime, I get this call from the President that I can come back on his birthday; but I hadn't talked to them, and I didn't say anything to the President about it because I didn't know anything about it. I came back from that trip and that's when five men came to my office (I was then running Crown Drug Company

[443]

at 2110 Central) with Harry Schwimmer. And three of them were scientists--all of them foreigners, whom I could hardly understand they spoke such horrible broken English--and I heard then, the most fantastical story that anybody could ever hear. That there was a project--and this is about the story--there was a project that they were handling exclusively for the President, Franklin D. Roosevelt. Only one other man in the world knew about it and they couldn't tell me who he was. He had the close connection with the University of Chicago, and he knew everything, and he handled the money that paid for this project for Mr. Roosevelt, and it was one of the biggest secrets in the history of the world. It was such a gigantic thing that there had been millions and millions of dollars spent on it. It was so gigantic and so tremendous that the men who were working on it were not permitted any outside liberties at all; they were constantly under guard of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and in fact, "sitting outside

[444]

your door, is two Federal Bureau men that came down with us--FBI men."

Well, it sounded like a fairy tale and, to me--these men who were terribly foreign--it just didn't make sense; and what they would like to have me do--they knew that Mr. Truman did not know anything about it; they felt sure he didn't, and because of my closeness with him, they would like to have me talk to him and arrange for their representative to meet with him in Washington and go over the full and complete story. And their representative would be the Chancellor of the university, Robert Hutchins. Well, he was the only one to me that meant anything, and I guess four or five hours were spent and the longer they spent, the deeper the mystery became, and they wound up by saying "This is so important to our country and the war effort that we have uncovered a metal whereby an airplane can take the air and never return to the ground ever, if it wants to; it can carry an unlimited supply of

>[445]

fuel. The same for ships and submarines." Of course, we'd never heard of atomic energy at that time--it didn't mean much to me. But, as I say, the longer we talked the more mystifying it became. I said, "I'll talk to the President about it." What else could I do? So I made a special trip back to Washington and called him to make sure that he was going to be there, talked to Matt Connelly, and went in to see him, and proceeded to tell him the story just as it was told to me. I had spent about four hours with these men and after about three minutes, and me saying that these men came and nobody knew anything about it, except President Roosevelt and one other man, he said, "Well, I know about it." Never will forget it. And his chin sort of stuck out. And he said, "It is a gigantic thing, Tom. It's the most important thing that's ever been developed in the history of the world, and I don't want you to have one single solitary thing to do with it, because it's something that would worry

[446]

you sick and you're too good a friend of mine. I wouldn't have you messed up in it at all, and I'll tell you what to do. You get those gentlemen on the telephone, and you tell them to be here tomorrow morning at ten o'clock, and you meet them, if you want, and bring them over to the White House and bring them into the Fish Room"--that was a room across from his office, Jim. The reason it was called "Fish Room" was because they had an aquarium with some fish in it. That was the only reason it was called Fish Room--"and then you bid them goodbye and tell them that there will be some people see them, and it won't be me, but I'll come in and shake hands with them and turn them over to some people that will handle it. I don't want you to ever think another thing about it, and someday you and I will talk about it and you'll know what it's all about." And I did just that, and I never knew anything about it, for sure, until he came back from Potsdam, where

[447]

he had ordered the bomb dropped on…and he said, "That's what it was." And I never knew any of the developments after that, But that was another great favor that Mr. Truman did me, was keep me out of being tied up in that. I have always thought, and I have no reason for this and I never asked Mr. Truman--someday I will, but I never think about it now, because that's been a long time ago--I've always been under the impression, Jim, that the man that was the go-between, was the man that had had his office out on the park by the White House...

FUCHS: Bernard Baruch?

EVANS: Yes...was the go-between. Now, I don't know whether it was or not.

FUCHS: Just what did these men have in mind? Do you remember any of their names?

EVANS: No, I don't. All very great--all scientists--all working on the atomic...

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FUCHS: Did one of them happen to be Leo Szilard?

EVANS: I think so, yes. I'm wondering why you thought that?

FUCHS: Well, Leo Szilard was one of the group that led sort of a--not a revolt exactly--it was before the bomb was dropped, but after they were pretty certain it would work--a movement to get the President not to use the bomb. In other words, these people became concerned about their consciences and about the terrible thing that this bomb could lead to and they drew up a petition, and so forth.

EVANS: That's right; that's who it was; that's one of them. There were three of them. Do you know him?

FUCHS: No, I just know…

EVANS: His speech was terribly broken. What nationality is he?

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FUCHS: I believe Szilard (and I couldn't say for certain) is Hungarian, There were others involved, but he was the leader; in fact, he went down to see Byrnes in South Carolina. Byrnes, at that time, was temporarily out of the Government and he went down to see Byrnes about this because certain documents had been transferred from Roosevelt's desk to Byrnes.

EVANS: That's one of the men. Then afterwards, the bomb was dropped, he led the group to do away with further development of it by all countries agreeing, which Mr. Truman said was out of the question, because you couldn't trust the Russians at all; he wouldn't be any party to it. I remember that.

FUCHS: Well, this whole story is so involved that I don’t feel confident to talk very authoritatively about it, but I know that...

EVANS: It was so involved, that I got out of it so easy, thank God, again. People say, oh, have on occasion: "Well, why did you devote so much time

[450]

to raising money for the Library and so much time to building it and now devote so much time…"

"My God, the man did me two great favors, I'm trying to pay him back."

And when I went out day before yesterday and submitted a statement on our Harry S. Truman Library Institute--he went all over it--it was quite detailed: "God, how can I ever repay you for all the things you've done for me?" said Mr. Truman.

"You make a statement like that after all the things you've done for me."

"You tell me one thing I've done for you."

"You kept me out of Government and that's enough, you don't need to know any of the rest of it."

FUCHS: I just wondered what you thought they wanted from you by this rather devious approach coming from, I believe, what was called the Metallurgical Laboratory, at the University of Chicago, which

[451]

did a lot of the basic research. Of course, the project for the scientific development was the Manhattan Project.

EVANS: They were doing this research of learning to split the atom--that's where they learned to do it. That's my understanding, and that it was costing a tremendous amount of money, and that Roosevelt had arranged to get it into a fund that nobody knew what he was doing with it but him, and this man that had arranged it, was paying all the bills, because nobody else knew anything about it.

I said to him, "Well, you know all about it--I'm curious, how did you know all about it?"

And he said, "You remember when we were together," (meaning Mr. Roosevelt and me) "and the pictures appeared in our shirtsleeves?"

"Yes."

"That's what we were talking about."

FUCHS: Is that right? Because the generally accepted

[452]

story, as I recall, is that when he became President, in other words, after Roosevelt had died, he did not know of the project, except that he had been asked at one time, when he was running the committee, to lay off investigation of certain plants, without being told what was being done in those plants.

EVANS: But after he became Vice President, Roosevelt did tell him about it, but not the full details. He knew a lot about it.

FUCHS: But he did know that there was a search for a way to create an atomic bomb?

EVANS: And knew how much money had been spent on it at that time, which at that particular time, Jim, was a tremendous amount of money--it wouldn't mean much now--that had already been spent, because the thing from a businessman-layman standpoint was: "How could any President of the United States spend that kind of money without anybody knowing

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anything about it?"--of our money--you know--our Government money. How could they do it? Well, Roosevelt did, apparently. But thank God, that's all I know about it, because he cut it off, thank God, and I knew nothing about it.

FUCHS: But, as you recollect, Mr. Truman told you that he did know about the attempt to get an atomic bomb before he became President?

EVANS: Yes. Between the time of their inaugural, and the time Mr. Roosevelt went to Warm Springs, they had a discussion.

FUCHS: I remember the picture that was taken of them. That's very interesting. What about a man named Hans Unger, who, I believe, was a friend of Harry Schwimmer? There's some correspondence in your file where you mention that you want the facts about an appointment made by Connelly for "Harry S.," and you wanted to know if it had anything to do with guns, and if so, you were going to make some

[454]

changes. Do you recall anything about that?

EVANS: Yes, that's quite a long story and somewhat hazy in my memory. First, Hans Unger came to me, introduced himself--and I believe he was German, maybe a German-Jew--and said, by way of introduction, "My father-in-law is Dr. J. C. Flynn." And Dr. J. C. Flynn had his office right over here at 31st and Main--a veterinarian--and was well-known throughout entire Kansas City, and I'd known him since I'd had my first drugstore, down two blocks. Dr. J. C. Flynn and I had worked on many civic affairs together and so, "he must be all right"--he's Dr. Flynn's son-in-law, married Dr. Flynn's daughter. As I remember it, he was a refugee from Germany; had been in a concentration camp, I believe, because he was partial Jew, and had numbers tattooed on his arm; and had come over and had fallen in love with Flynn's daughter and married her. He had a great idea that he could set up an import-export business--

[455]

mainly import; that the Germans were noted for their great manufacture of precision instruments, and that he was looking for a small amount of capital, somebody with connections. And I was pretty busy in those days with doing things for Mr. Truman who was President of the United States, running a chain of 100 drugstores, and running a broadcasting business. I didn't have much time to see people like that. So, I sent him to my attorney and made an appointment for him to see Harry Schwimmer. Schwimmer spent a great deal of time with Hans Unger, and worked out a deal whereby we would set up the import-export company. We incorporated a company known as the St. Joseph International, and Schwimmer and I put up enough cash to send Unger to Europe to make contacts for merchandise to be imported into this country and, if I remember correctly, we sent him back to Europe with a list of merchandise manufactured in the United States that could be exported to places in Europe. Hans Unger found out that there

[456]

was only one company that had an import license for all opium imported in the United States from Turkey, and he wanted to set up a company and take over--get this license, at which time I learned, he had been using my name as being very close to the President of the United States, and that he could get most anything done that anybody in Germany, Italy, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and all the rest of the countries wanted. And when I started getting inquiries, I dissolved our arrangement and we cancelled out the corporation, and I had quite a set-to with Mr. Unger and told him that he'd missed a good opportunity; that by using Mr. Truman's name and apparent influence that I had, that we just weren't going to do business. That's all there was to it.

FUCHS: You don't recall anything about this particular letter in which you inquired if Harry S. had brought up the matter about guns?

[457]

EVANS: Yes, I do remember just a little about it. Schwimmer would call Connelly and ask Connelly to make appointments for Unger, at which time Schwimmer told me that he was trying to make a deal for some guns and he wondered if I knew about it, and I didn't. I wanted to check on it, but shortly thereafter I got some other stories, so that didn't make any difference, because we dissolved the partnership.

FUCHS: Do you know what kind of a deal it was for guns? Importing or...

EVANS: No, I don't remember a thing about it.

FUCHS: You mentioned once that you attended a Gridiron Club dinner with Roy Roberts at HST's request? Do you have a recollection of that?

EVANS: Oh, yes. That was the time, that I mentioned a while ago today, when I was two weeks with Mr. Roy Roberts in Washington; that was the tame, to attend the Gridiron dinner. Mr. Truman wanted

[458]

me to attend the Gridiron dinner, where he was, of course, the guest of honor--the first Gridiron dinner when he was President; I attended a number of them after that.

FUCHS: Was this one in 1945 or '46?

EVANS: I believe this was in 1945 and the first Gridiron dinner and Mr. Truman wanted me there. Mr. Roberts is a member of the Gridiron and a past president. So he just told Duke Shoop, who was a Kansas City Star representative "Have Roy Roberts invite my friend Tom Evans back for the Gridiron dinner." And he did. I didn't know it for some time. I thought I was a guest of Roy's; I was a guest of Roy's but at Mr. Truman's suggestion. There was a lot of the President's friends there, attended that particular--I remember a number of his Cabinet. Ed McKim was there, Matt Connelly, and myself, and it was quite a thrill to attend the Gridiron dinner; but I told you the main part about Mr. Roberts and his weight and

[459]

his liquor and coming back and writing all those wonderful stories. That was that particular Gridiron dinner.

FUCHS: What about Fred Canfil in the '44 campaign? I believe you have a story about him and Mr. Truman's office here in Kansas City?

EVANS: That's kind of a sore spot with me, but I'll tell you the story. I don't know how you get all these things to ask me, to remind me of.

But anyway, as I said earlier in the day, Canfil was a very peculiar individual; he had no use for many people, but the one thing that made me tolerate him was that I honestly believe that he would have done anything in the world for Mr. Truman, So, because of that, I tolerated him on a lot of things. He, of course, was the United States Marshal appointed by Mr. Truman, If you'll recall, or maybe you don't, he was taking a prisoner down to Springfield, Missouri, I believe, and somebody started to question him and he was nasty

[460]

about it--gave him some smart remark, and they said, "Well, under the Constitution of the United States, you've got to do this."

And he said, "To hell with the Constitution," which is a pretty bad thing to say.

But anyway, I was one of the few people that got along with him. Mr. Truman, when he was Senator, maintained an office in the Federal Courts Building, and when he was elected Vice President that room was changed from "Senator Truman" to "Vice President Truman" and was enlarged. During the campaign of 1944 he said that he had to have a telephone, a private telephone--there was a telephone but it went through the Government switchboard. And he (Fred) said that he had to have a telephone in there because he couldn't use the Government telephone, So, we put in a telephone and out of the fund we paid the telephone bill. That involved each month quite a lot of long distance calls, of which he would send me the bill, and out of the campaign fund I would

[461]

O.K. it and Lew Barringer would issue a check. Then Mr. Truman was elected and the campaign was over--couldn't make any more expenditures out of the campaign fund. You may wonder what point I'm trying to make, but you'll get it after while, So the campaign's over and I said to Fred, "Well, we ought to discontinue that telephone down there." And he said, "Well, I've got to keep it for a while, because I've got a lot of loose ends."

Well, the campaign was over and we had no business paying that telephone bill, and Fred would send me the telephone bill and instead of sending it to Lew Barringer to pay, because the campaign was over, I'd pay it myself, personally. And I did that for December and January and February. Then Mr. Roosevelt died and Mr, Truman became President. And I called Fred and I said, "Fred, this campaign committee cannot pay this bill any longer, you're going to have to take that telephone out."

He said, "I want to see you." He came out

[462]

to my office. He said, "I talked to the President, and he told me to keep that telephone so that he could call me and talk things over with me, and so I could call him," And, of course, he was the type of fellow that would lead you to believe that Mr. Truman did not do anything without asking him if it was all right.

FUCHS: Is that right?

EVANS: Oh, yes, very much like that. And so, I said to myself, "Well, if Mr. Truman said that, why, I'm sure going to pay it, but the campaign's not going to pay it because it's not a campaign expense." So here was all these calls to Washington. (You'll find out how sappy I really am, Jim, when you get to know me.) And he'd call Washington on that telephone bill and send it to me, and I, personally, would send my personal check to pay that telephone bill. It would run $15, $18, or $20 a month, regular. After about six months--and he and I were good friends; he had very few

[463]

people that he had use for, but me, and, of course, I was paying his bills.

FUCHS: Were these calls actually going to Mr. Truman as President?

EVANS: Oh, yes, sure.

FUCHS: What was he talking to him about?

EVANS: Oh, yes, sure, because he was his good friend. But they were not important calls; they were important to Fred, but not to the President.

So then he comes to me--now, I told you how peculiar he was, earlier in the day. Mr. Truman, as close as they were, never saw his wife or his family at all, Nobody else ever did, and when he died they had a private funeral, and nobody has ever seen his wife or son or anything. So, anyway, he had no telephone at home; you couldn’t find him. I thought he had a silent number but he didn't have. So, he came to me and he said, "I was talking to the President

[464]

this morning on the telephone, and he told me that there was so often he had to get in touch with me that I had to put in a telephone at home, and he told me to send the bill to you and that you'd have the campaign fund pay it."

O.K. Now Canfil thought that the campaign fund was paying it. Well, they had during the campaign, but after the campaign was over, as I say, you couldn't pay it. So I got two telephone bills every month, each of them running about twenty or twenty-five dollars apiece.

FUCHS: About what month did this start that you got the second phone?

EVANS I would say...let's see, Mr. Truman became President in April--I'd say about June. And so I paid the two telephone bills--one telephone bill for all the year of 1945, and two telephone bills for six months of '45; two telephone bills for all the year of 1946; and all the bills of 1947. By that time, my secretary ran off a list of how much I had paid and it had amounted, to as near

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as I can remember, almost $2,000, Every time I signed the check, she said, I was so mean and nasty for two or three hours, nobody could get along with me, and I was mad about it. And so, I was back in Washington one time, and I went to Matt Connelly and told Matt Connelly the story. And he said, "Well, you've got to tell the President." So, he took me by the arm and took me right into the office and he said, "Mr. President, Tom has a story that he doesn't want to tell you, but I insist on it."

Now Canfil just bothered the hell out of people in the White House. To emphasize the fact that he was a very peculiar man, I have to tell you a few little funny stories. The first trip he made to the White House, after Mr. Truman became President, he went up to everybody and wanted to know what their job was. "What do you do; what do you do; what's your work; what's your work;"--

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and blustery type, arrogant, overbearing; and he loved to be with the Secret Service men. He was a close personal friend of Mr. Truman. If you’ll recall, he went with him on the trip to Potsdam, and he introduced him. Mr. Truman likes to tell the story. "This is Marshal Canfil from Missouri, this is Marshal Stalin." Well, Stalin thought Canfil was the same kind of a Marshal in the United States that he was Marshal...

FUCHS: Field Marshal.

EVANS: Well, I told the President the story and he said, "Well, I'm not going to stand for it. You go back and tell him that by God, he can pay for his own telephone at home. I do want to get him once in a while on the telephone. I don’t want you to pay for it, and I'm going to tell him that he's going to have to reimburse you all the money that you've paid out. That's wrong. Take that telephone out of that office down there; we don't need it at all."

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I said, "Look, Mr. President, I don’t ask for many things, but please don't say anything except one thing; let me go back and tell Fred Canfil that we have now exhausted the funds of the campaign and there's no more money available and I asked you about it and you told me to tell him to discontinue the phone in the office in the Federal Building, and that he (Canfil) would have to pay his phone at home."

"No, sir," he said, "I'm going to make him pay you back."

And I said, "No, sir, if you do, you and I are going to fall out, because that guy will crucify me; he's your friend and that's all right, but he’s the meanest son-of-a-bitch that ever lived, and he'll crucify me and I just don't want to be crucified. Please let me do it." And I pleaded.

"Well, I don't like it, but I will, Go ahead."

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So, I came back and I said, "The campaign fund, Fred, is completely exhausted. I talked to Mr. Truman about it and he told me to discontinue the telephone in the Federal Building and that you'd have to pay your own telephone bill at home." And he never spoke to me after that day.

FUCHS: Was he the only one who was using the phone in the--was there anyone in the office?

EVANS: No, no.

FUCHS: He just went in there when he wanted to make a phone call?

EVANS: That's right, and carried the key to the door; nobody else had it. Now, at first, the one or two trips when Mr. Truman came back as Vice President, he used it, but that was the only time.

FUCHS: By crucifying you, you meant that Canfil would run you down to everyone?

EVANS: Yes, and do anything. He'd just do anything.

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There wasn't anything he wouldn't do to gain his point. Nobody had any use for Fred Canfil except President Truman. Now the President wouldn't believe that, but it's true and I can prove it by anybody that knew him.

FUCHS: You don't know why there was this affinity between them?

EVANS: No, and I had so little use for him that I never talked to Mr. Truman much about him.

FUCHS: I believe in conversation we had one time you mentioned something that he said when Mr. Truman was elected Senator in 1934?

EVANS: Well, after all Fred worked very hard in all campaigns for Mr. Truman, and he was devoted, as I say, You probably, Jim, attach a lot of significance to it, but this happened so often that I paid no attention. He worked like the dickens on Mr. Truman's first senatorial campaign and I remember what you're referring to. After

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he was elected, Fred said, "Well, now we got him elected, you and I've got to tell him what to do; he doesn't know anything about it."